“You asked about my mission, it’s education through tourism and truth telling and getting to that place where sustainability means something to everybody, not just us.” — Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman)

How can storytelling and tourism help encourage reconciliation? For Sunrise When the Salmon Come, whose non-Indigenous name is Cheryl Chapman, it starts by telling the whole story of a destination. By sharing these truths, visitors are connected to the land, its people, and their shared history—creating a deeper commitment to sustainability and reconciliation.

Cheryl has been a driving force in developing Indigenous heritage and cultural sites in British Columbia’s Cariboo Chilcotin Coast region.  In 1996, she helped establish Xatśūll (hat-sooth) Heritage Village, the first of its kind in North America. This award-winning site invites visitors to engage with the traditions and stories of the Xatśūll First Nation, where they can take part in a variety of educational and recreational activities.

Her dedication to Indigenous representation didn’t stop there. Cheryl spent 26 years advocating for the inclusion of Indigenous perspectives at Barkerville, a significant historical site on the Gold Rush Trail that tells the story of the 1850s and 1860s prospecting boom. In 2019, her efforts paid off, when Indigenous interpretation became part of the visitor experience.

Cheryl believes that tourism, when approached with intention, is a powerful tool for reconciliation. “What we need is an open mind and an open heart so that you can hear the truth and the story,” she says. Her work demonstrates how collaboration and education can transform tourism products, helping destinations engage meaningfully with Indigenous communities and create more accurate and inclusive experiences.

You’ll also learn:

• What it means to tell the whole story of a place. 
• Cheryl’s efforts to bring Indigenous interpretation to Barkerville and her involvement in the development of the Xatśūll Heritage Village.
• How sharing the truth can create opportunities for healing from both Indigenous and non-Indigenous perspectives.
• How intentional tourism is a natural platform for education and reconciliation.

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Show notes

Barkerville Historic Town & Park — A National Historic Site and Provincial Heritage Property, this not-for-profit charitable organization is recognized as the largest living history museum in Western North America. 

Xatśūll First Nation — A First Nations government of the Secwepemc Nation, located in the Cariboo region of British Columbia.

Xatśūll Heritage Village — A national award-winning heritage village where visitors can experience the spiritual, cultural, and traditional way of life of the Xatśūll community.

Episode transcript

This transcript was generated using AI and has been lightly reviewed for accuracy.

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): We’re not just educating children. We’re educating the world as they come through our gates. We have an opportunity, you know, for truth telling. And when you ask about my mission, it’s education through tourism and truth telling. Getting to that place where sustainability means something to everybody.

David Archer: Hello and welcome back to Travel Beyond, where we partner with leading destinations to bring you inspiring solutions to the greatest challenges facing communities and the planet. I’m David Archer from Destination Think, recording from Haida Gwaii, the territory of the Haida Nation, located off the north coast of British Columbia in Canada.

We’re actively looking for the best examples of efforts to regenerate economies, communities, and ecosystems, so be sure to reach out. If you can share a story of a solution or innovation with us, you can reach me at david at destinationthink.com. This week, we’re back with Sunrise When the Salmon Come who’s non-Indigenous name is Cheryl Chapman.

Cheryl has been a key figure in advocating for and supporting the development of Indigenous heritage and cultural sites in the Cariboo Chilcotin coast region of BC. We’ve heard from her once before on this podcast in an episode where she shared some of the hard history about the abuses of colonization in her territory and how she communicates that history to visitors.

Cheryl is a great storyteller and has advocated for decades to bring Indigenous interpretation to Barkerville, British Columbia. Barkerville is a significant historical site and destination on today’s Gold Rush Trail, which attracts visitors to learn about the prospecting boom that happened there in the 1850s and 60s.

Today in the summer, you can find Cheryl there working alongside Mike Rataskett, another guest of Travel Beyond, where they tell another side of the Gold Rush history that you might not yet know about, at least if you’re like me. Growing up in Canadian public schools, you might not have learned a lot about the impacts of the Gold Rush on Indigenous peoples in particular, which is one reason that these tourism experiences are so important.

Cheryl worked to establish the Xatśūll Heritage Village, which opened in 1996, And she’s got a fascinating perspective on how tourism can be one of our biggest tools for reconciliation by helping people to build relationships with places and Indigenous cultures and also within the tourism industry. So if you work in an area or visit an area shared with Indigenous neighbors, then this chat with Cheryl might have you re-examining your role a little bit and what education while travelling can look like.

She gives us some good advice for professionals in tourism and especially at heritage sites. When it comes to cultural exchange, and it’s just generally good life advice too, slowing down and appreciating what’s around you might be one of the best sustainability tips we’ve heard yet. So here are Steve Henderson and Sunrise When the Salmon Come, or Cheryl Chapman.

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Hello, I’m Sunrise When the Salmon Come, and I’m from the Xatśūll First Nation. My, uh, non Indigenous name is Cheryl Chapman. It’s good to be here. 

Steve Henderson: Thanks so much for having us. Um, what makes you feel at home here? 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): I think I was lucky enough to be, uh, introduced to my grandmother and grandfather when I was very young.

And that, that connection back to British Columbia and, and the Cariboo was, uh, always part of what mom talked about. My mom talked about, you know, her brothers and sisters. She was one of 17 children, 15 that survived. Yeah, it’s about having that connection, family connection, and then understanding from granny and grandpa that the reason that we were here at, in, in the Cariboo and, and specifically at Soda Creek was because that’s where our family was from.

That’s where our roots are from is, is from the Shuswap territory, right, the northern Shuswap territory, because Granny was from Williams Lake. They knew the, the hills, they knew the, the rivers and the creeks and the, you know, and they taught me those things. So I just felt like I had somewhere that I belonged.

And I know that a lot of, a lot of people don’t, don’t have that connection, which is sad. Like I look at my, my non Indigenous side of my family, my dad’s side, you know, and been trying to get more history from my uncle. It’s like, okay, we go to Lebanon, Indiana. You know, my grandfather was a sheriff and all these things, right, and I’m going, okay, I want to go back further than that.

Like what, well, nobody knows where he came from, you know, great great grandpa. They don’t know where he came from because when he came from Europe, wherever it was from, they weren’t of high enough caliber of human beings and so his original last name, he changed it so that he could get work and, and fit in, and it, and it created this gap, like this, our family stops, and it’s like, well, they had to come from somewhere, right?

So I know when I talk to guests and, and, you know, people that I meet, and we talk about that sense of belonging. And I’ve had lots of people say to me, I don’t even know where, where I belong. I don’t have that connection. I live in, you know, wherever they’re from. And I go, yeah, but are you a part of that, the dirt there, you know? Like, is it, what does it mean to you? Same question. 

Steve Henderson: Yeah. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Right? And they go, I don’t know where my people are from. And I go, wow, there’s a journey for you. Right? 

Steve Henderson: Buckle up. Yeah. Yeah. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): And, and that recognition that possibly you’re not going to find out because I went back on my non Indigenous side and I got stopped in my tracks because of the lack of an actual name that anybody recognized.

Steve Henderson: Right? How do you think, and I think, we’ll explore this in a tourism context and in part of a discovery, but what are some tools for people to reckon with that? I mean, how can people discover a sense of place? Because I think, you know, when we talk about that lack of connectivity people experience, I think that is at the root of a lot of that too, right?

We have these transient populations. It’s everyone’s rushing and not paying attention to the ground beneath them. How can somebody discover that? Or what’s, what is the first step for somebody to walk that path? Stop! 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Yeah. Yeah, just, you know, and that’s what you tell people, just slow down, right? Stop, hang on.

It’s interesting because our families and our communities often welcome strangers from all over the world, and always have. You know, I mean it started with our neighbors historically, you know, the carrier, they call them Dehcho, and, and the Tsilhqot’in, and Nuxalk, all the different nations. And we welcome them into our territory, share what we have, you know, but they had their own territory to go back to, right?

And so when the newcomers came or the non Indigenous people started coming, it was like, well, where are these guys from? And they go across the water. And it’s like, and you’re going back, right? And they were like, no, we’ve come to make our lives better and everything. And then they turn around and start creating exactly what they left behind.

And it’s like, hey, did you not come here to make a better life? Like, why would you create exactly the mess that you left in your own country? So I think it, I think it’s taking that time to just stop and examine why you yourself are here. And I always, I always talk to groups, you know, city councils and different, and different groups and say, thank you for joining us on, in our territory.

Please assist me in taking care of it the way that my ancestors always have. And I’ve taught me to leave the land better than how you found it. And when you have an opportunity to assist in looking after the land, then it becomes part of you. And I also think those that have chosen our traditional territory to live in, because they obviously love it almost as much as we do.

So, you know, when they purchased a piece of property, or they, you know, moved there and they’re staying, I came for, you know, a job 14 years ago and here I am still here. I thought I’d be, you know, there for two years or whatever the normal, you know, length of time is. And I just can’t get away. I just love it here.

And it’s like, well, thank you. And thank you for helping to look after our territory. And they start saying, I mean, I’m, welcome to stay. And I said, absolutely. If you’re not making a mess or making life worse for everyone else. 

Steve Henderson: Help us steward it. Yeah, exactly. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): And it, it can be challenging because there are those that have that mentality of, uh, they think that they’re allowed to, you know, entitled because they pay taxes or they, whatever. And I always laugh because people, oh, you know, I work at the mine and I pay my taxes. And so my taxes pay your salary. And I look at them and I go, but the money that you earned came from the resources out of my yard.

Steve Henderson: So, so inspiring. You know, so, from guests coming into the region, let’s touch on some of the tourism elements. Tell us a little bit about your roles in your career. And I guess I’d add on, what, what’s your personal mission with your career now?

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Yeah. Oh, you’re asking a 60 year old woman this question.

So I started out as a car hop, on roller skates, at Dog Suds. I think one of the biggest biggest things for me was meeting people from different places. Like I was car hopping at Dog and Suds and I met these people that were Dutch and they were in the drive in, you know, in Williams Lake in a rental car.

And the lady had a Dutch accent, of course, and I was like, and she asked me a couple of questions about the area, and I was able to tell her, well, if you’re going down to the Williams Lake Stampede Grounds, my grandmother was born, you know, in 1909, right where the red barns are, just at the back there, there used to be an Indian village there, and historically our people lived, and there were seven Indigenous villages in this front area.

Where they are, where they’re all clumped together at the end of Williams Lake, all the way down to the Fraser River, you know, I was able to share a little bit of our history with her, and she was like, and you guys are still here, and I said, well, where would we go? You know, like, this is our, our home, right?

And she introduced me to mayonnaise with french fries. Which was interesting. I still love it. So for me, it was about being able to share the stories about where we live and play and and work and everything and I thought wow, this is really cool I like talking to people finding out things about them, you know, and then sharing the truth, you know, I did a lot of waitressing and you know working at the bars and doing all those things ended up I started working for my community when I was 17 or 18 years old after my car, car hop experience.

At 16, I started working with our community and my mom was the community health representative. And so she got me working with the elders. You gotta go and help the elders. What am I doing? Whatever they want you to do, you go and help the elders. Then I started learning the history, and the stories, and the family connections, and the, you know, and actually listening.

Like, cause Grandpa and Granny have been telling me these things since I was little, you know. You take it for granted. Yeah, they’re always going to be here. They’ll tell me that story 47 times, and I’ll get it, you know, eventually or whatever. And that’s how the teachings went, right? You’d hear the same story over and over again until it becomes, you know, a normal part of your oral history, you know, but I started working with the elders and just finding out so much more about our territory and our families and our interconnectedness between nations and communities and things like that.

And I was like, I had the opportunity a couple of times to tell, you know, people, Oh, this person is related to that person over there. And they’re like, really? And I, yeah, the families are connected. And this is how, because the elders had taught me those things. So. And then I went off and did some stuff with Native Fishing Association and, or Native Youth Job Corps and the Native Fishing Association, and then I came home and worked with the Cariboo Friendship Society.

When the Cariboo Friendship Society was just a little house on the corner, you know, I had to do fundraising because we were trying to build a new friendship center. So I worked at the Cariboo Friendship Society in the alcohol and drug program, and, uh, newly sober. Came to realize that the world probably was, might be okay if I was sober, maybe.

And, uh, so I worked with an alcohol and drug program and these amazing people came in with an elder from the Nuxalk Nation, Sam Moody. And I laugh because there’s a video of Thomas Schoen and Ralph Phillips, the elder Ralph Phillips from Xatśūll. And they talked about the beginning of the Xatśūll Heritage Village.

And I said, you know, there’s a little bit more to that story than what they shared in the video. Because it started with Thomas and Bettina Schoen meeting with Sam Moody and they went to the Nuxalk Nation and they were asking to set up an Indigenous village so the German people could come and be Indians, right?

Because that’s what they were doing in Germany! I don’t know if I told you that story. No, where the Indian people or the German people dress up in buckskins and they live in teepees and they out on the land and based on these books that were, were, were written by a guy that had never been here and so they were being Indians, but they wanted, a lot of German people wanted to come to Canada and actually experience Indigenous.

So Thomas and Bettina, of course, being German, were over here and they were looking for a location to have one of the Indigenous communities set up a village where the German people could come and be Indians. And, um, they introduced themselves in the German accent, right? And I said, yeah, I wonder what these people are doing.

So they explained to me what they wanted to do, but the Nuxalk people were not ready to do it. And so I said, well, did you talk to Soda Creek? And it’s right on the highway. It’d be good access for a, for a tourism venture. Have you talked to Xatśūll? And they, Soda Creek. And they said, no. Who do we talk to?

So I gave them my, our band administrators name. Two years later, I was working for the Soda Creek band. And I’m doing my job, right? And the band administrator comes along and here’s Simon, Simon, our band administrator, and then Thomas and Bettina and Sam Moody. I went, oh hey, I remember you guys. And Simon says, and you, into council chambers right now, you started this.

And I went, what did I do now, right? And then we went into council chambers and they were pitching the idea to our chief in council. And that’s where our heritage village started. So I ended up involved in developing our heritage village. Yeah, it’s beautiful. And you’ll see it tomorrow, it’s just amazing.

And of course that led me to thinking about marketing, and one of the things that they talk about is cross marketing. So your neighbor down the road, you know, they advertise your stuff, and you advertise their stuff, and you, you know, you do cross marketing, right? And so I said, because we’re on the Cariboo Wagon Road, or the Gold Rush Trail, or, you know, it used to be a trade trail, but the Cariboo Wagon Road.

Because we’re on, or it’s on us, at Xatśūll, I was talking to Barkerville and said, you know, if people are interested in more about the Gold Rush, we’ll send them to you. And if they’re interested in the Indigenous story, would you send them to us? And, of course, I knew from my grandfather that we had a connection to Barkerville, our family did.

They said, well, there was no Indians in Barkerville. And I went, excuse me, hang on a second here. So every time I turned it around, I was working in some way with Xatśūll and trying to market the Xatśūll Heritage Village and trying to get the story through. So that Barkerville would acknowledge the Indigenous perspective of the gold rush.

Steve Henderson: Yeah. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): And, you know, the impacts and all those things. And for years, 26 years to be exact, I was banging on the gate and I’d say, excuse me, are you going to start talking about the Indians that were in, you know, at the time we were called, being called Indians. And then we were Aboriginals and First Nations and Indigenous.

Even through all the name changes, I was still saying, you know. We have stories that put us in Barkerville, that puts our family in Barkerville, that talks about the community at Bear Lake or Bower, what’s now Bower Lake. It’s like, oh no, all the Indians that were in Barkerville were either drunk or, or, or in, or in jail.

No, some of them were, you know, packing things and working for different miners and things like that. I’m sure there’s more to it than, than my grandfather. So it kept banging on the gate until finally, you know, the gate comes open and it’s like, okay, come and we’ll, we’ll celebrate the Aboriginals one day, for one day a year.

That went on for five years. And I was like, okay, that’s fun. So, no, four years. And then James Douglas, not the James Douglas, our James Douglas, was the marketing guy up there. And we were on the Cariboo Chilcotin Coast Tourism Board together. And, uh, I said, James, there’s more stories to Barkerville, you know.

We’re Indigenous, my, you know. So, he went back, and he and his boss did a proposal up, and they got money to have Indigenous interpretation in Barkerville. Well, this is our fifth year there. So, it was five years ago. And he put out the advertisement, and none of the Indians wanted to work. Even though I got the gate open, and I was like, oh no!

Oh! We’re in trouble here because I was working for Xatśūll, right? And I got a full time job. I, you know, like you gotta hire somebody to put the job description out there, you know. Couldn’t find anybody. So June come along and they’re open, right? And the school groups are coming and he’s still got this position that’s not filled.

He phones me and he says, I don’t know what to do. He says, I haven’t got any applicants for this position. I said, well, I’m working full time, James. Like he says, you got to come and help me. I said, I can’t, I’m working full time. He says, well, can you send me Mike? And I said, yeah, I guess so. So I talked to Mike.

So Mike moved up there and he was doing the interpretation seven days a week. 

Steve Henderson: Oh wow. Yeah. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): And then I talked to my boss at Xatśūll and I said, can I take my vacation days on Fridays. For the summer and they said well, yeah, if that’s what you want to do make every weekend a long weekend So I would work Monday to Thursday at Soda Creek at Xatśūll and then Thursday after work, I’d drive to Barkerville and be on the street in Barkerville Friday Saturday Sunday get in my truck drive back to Soda Creek and then work Monday to Thursday. So I did that for two years. 

Steve Henderson: Oh, wow. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Mike was there seven days a week and I was there too. Yeah for you know, Friday, Saturday and Sunday I was working seven days a week. But the opportunities for education is just amazing. Like we, they always say, Oh, we do school groups. So that’s your education part. We’re not just educating children.

We’re educating the world as they come through our gates. We have an opportunity, you know, for truth telling. When you ask about my mission. You know, it’s education through tourism and truth telling. Getting to that place where sustainability means something to everybody, not just us, right? And it’s creating those connections.

So yeah, education through tourism and truth telling towards reconciliation. 

Steve Henderson: It’s a beautiful thing when you, when you, when you state it as simply as that, right? It’s just, I think people really gravitate towards that. So cultural preservation, sacred sites. Truth telling are all major themes in your work.

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Yeah. 

Steve Henderson: What are some success stories in a tourism context? How is tourism help uplift those share those and help people connect with your culture. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): So the Xatśūll Heritage Village is 27 years old this year 1996 June 1st 1996 I remember it well, because I was standing beside the chief at the opening ceremonies, and we had invited 2, 000 people, expecting 500, because that’s how it works, right?

Usually you over invite and you under expect, because usually people just can’t make it, right? So, I’m standing beside the chief, and we had invited 2, 000 people to our opening day, expecting 500, 1, 500 people showed up. The neighboring communities, the world, you know, Indi the Indigenous, or at the time it was Aboriginal Tourism BC the, the world was waiting for that opportunity and to see what it would look like, what it would be like, what it would feel like, what the heck we were thinking we were doing. Right. I think. But I was standing beside the chief in the circle. He was supposed to be, from my understanding, he was supposed to be welcoming the people and in doing that.

So he steps up and grabs a microphone, welcome. My name is Chief Lenny Sellers and I’m from here at Soda Creek and I’d like to welcome you all to our traditional territory as well as our opening of our cultural heritage site here at Xatśūll. Um, I hope you all enjoy your time here and the food and everything.

And your emcee for today is Cheryl Chapman. And he handed me the microphone. I was like, excuse me? I was like, what? You know, I was just panicked. I mean, I wasn’t a public speaker. I mean, I can coordinate this and phone somebody and talk to him one on one, you know, like this, but he’s got me standing in front of all these people and elders, right, and community members and traditional people, and I’m like, I’m just this greenhorn, no confidence in myself or my knowledge, right?

And he’s like, you’re, you’re emceeing today. So that was it. Somebody handed me a speaker’s list and that was it. I was like, holy. So that inflow of people meant to me. But they, they were interested. They wanted to learn. They weren’t just there for the food, which, thank heavens, our community is the way it is because everybody in the community went back to their houses and threw salmon in their ovens and you know, grabbed whatever and just started making food and it came out of every house in the community to the center rink area where we cook.

We’re feasting, we’re feeding people. We had, we ended up having enough food. So it was interesting for me to think people are actually curious. They actually want to learn, they want to understand. You know, I mean a total success in, in opening ceremony, as far as I could tell. We broke one bus, but that was okay.

And because it’s, the Xatśūll Heritage Village is a definitely a not for profit. I mean, it’s operated by the band, and it’s, it’s like that space when you talk about being grounded and feel like you want to be grounded. When you get to the Heritage Village, you feel like you’re at home. The spirits welcome you there and the ground has that hum from the Fraser River.

You’ll feel it tomorrow. There’s a resonance. 

And yeah, and you can feel it and the wind comes down. People get there and they don’t want to. Like that connection to place is provided just by the place. And then we’re able to share story, history, you know, traditional values, the plants, the medicine, the things that make up the landscape, and then the surrounding areas.

We also share stories about the surrounding areas and the history, and they’re like, this is so amazing, I gotta come back, or I wish I would have planned to be here for two days, you know, or three days, you know, and then they realize, oh, you can stay in a teepee and be on site for two days. As many days as you want to.

Steve Henderson: Yeah. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): And we’ve had people come back every year and, oh, I want the same teepee, it’s closer to the river because I like the sound of it. Right? It’s like, so yeah, there’s about connection, about sharing the history, the language, all those things. 

Steve Henderson: That’s such a beautiful win. Were there challenges along the way? How, um, I guess, what challenges have you had getting these stories across and these experiences across? 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Yes. Well, there’s, yeah, there’s internal challenges and external challenges. So I think that’s one of the things we had to remember is that we as Indigenous people are very patient and things take time.

And if it’s going to be done right, you have to, you have to work at it and be patient and allow it to create its own reality. It was 1994 when Thomas and Bettina actually showed up at the Heritage Village, and it took us until 1996 to open it. So it was like a two year journey just to get the door open.

The internal challenges, you know, was, we had community members that said no. And then had to have those conversations about why they were saying no. And were there ways that we could mitigate that. And in some cases there were, others it was like, well yeah, but you don’t talk about these sacred sites. You don’t point at them, you don’t, you can say that they exist.

But don’t point in their direction, because we don’t want people digging around, you know. So, there were those internal challenges, not externally. There are still people that don’t believe that we’re still here. I’ve had people and you know, now that we do our work at Barkerville Historic Town and Park, I can really see it because they come to a colonial site and they want to hear about the Gold Rush.

And then all of a sudden there’s some Indigenous and their wife, it’s mostly men, sorry, but it’s mostly men, white men, that say, no, all the Indians were, taken, you know, they were annihilated here and there was a war and we took the land and no, they don’t. And it’s like, okay, your school books didn’t fill in the rest of the story.

So we’re here to help you understand the reality. And they will stand at the back of the room with their arms crossed, planted against the wall, because the only reason they’re standing in the room at all is because it’s warmer in there or cooler depending on the time of year. And, uh, their wife and children are up at the front because they are interested and want to learn and the kids want to see all the stuff and you know yeah, we still have those people. 

Steve Henderson: Why do you think there’s such resistance? You know, I mean sometimes I I wonder they’ve attached to their own stories too deeply. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Absolutely. And, and there’s an unwillingness. It’s like my way or the highway. Or something that it goes back again to fear. And it goes back to our egos because, you know, the ego says no, we’re more, we’re superior to others. And everything around us is for our taking. And that’s why I always say, put your ego over there and tell it to stay in the corner because it’s unwelcome here.

What we need is an open mind and an open heart so that you can hear the truth and the story. The fear comes from that guilt that I was talking about, you know, historical guilt. If they did, their people did come here and wipe out the Indians. Thanks. And there’s an actual Indian still sitting here and they’re telling me that they survived the massacre.

Then I have to atone for the sins of my ancestors, right? So it goes back to that dogma and the Bible and all these things that just, you know, just hang on a second. Let’s have a conversation human being to human being. And, you know, recognize that the good and what we have today, which is an opportunity to make a better future for all of us, right? Not only my grandchildren, but yours as well. Because I know I won’t be here forever, but if I can create space for conversations and understanding and truth, then that’s, that’s a bonus.

Steve Henderson: The river, the river starts pointing in the right direction again, right? 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Steve Henderson: What advice would you have for other heritage sites looking to address their colonial past? 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): Face it, head on, I think it’s really neat, the work that we finally got started doing in Barkerville and, and, you know, now we’re locking on band office doors, you know, the other First Nations communities, you know, and open their eyes, open your eyes and look around and see whose traditional territory you’re sitting in, do some research, and then start banging on the band office doors, you know, and saying, okay, I’m from the heritage site over here, and we recognize that we’re in your territory.

What is your history of the place where this heritage site sits? You know, what’s your story? Will you come and share it with our guests? You know and the person that opened the door probably will say Steve ain’t getting me out there talking to the public which is basically what I said and then the reality they’ll they’ll find that individual or it will pique somebody’s interest or you will get the elder or the community member who is all about title and rights and taking back their territory and you know being aggressive so you might end up with those people as well.

So, you know you be aware of that. There’s a lot of, there’s a lot of hurt, there’s a lot of pain and a lot of anger and sadness, but stopping long enough to have the conversation. And then we go back to relationship building, right? And being patient. Don’t walk to the, go into the band office in January and expect by May when you open your doors that you’re going to have, you know, this Indian chief sitting there telling their story.

I think one of the, one of the hardest things that I’ve faced in my work in the tourism is the inconsistency of the people. So it’s about Mike’s favorite formula, which is trust equals performance over time. And if you don’t build that trust, you can’t, you can’t, right? So, yeah, let’s take the time. 

Steve Henderson: You’ve shared some beautiful perspectives with us, you know, grounded in your culture, the land, the region. Thank you, Cheryl. 

Sunrise When the Salmon Come (Cheryl Chapman): You’re welcome.

David Archer: This has been Travel Beyond presented by Destination Think, and you just heard Steve Henderson speaking with Cheryl Chapman, aka Sunrise When The Salmon Come. For more resources and show notes, visit DestinationThink.com. This episode was produced and has theme music composed by me, David Archer. Sarah Raymond de Booy, is my co producer.

Lindsay Payne, Jamie Sterling, and Cory Price provided production support. If you like what you hear, why don’t you give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or anywhere you listen. It helps more people find the show. And we’ll be back next time with more inspiring solutions and innovations.

We’ll talk to you then.