“We’re not a quality police. We’re not saying, you’re right, you’re wrong. We’re an open and tolerant city and that’s why we say everybody is welcome to the city if you add something to the livability or the quality of life of residents.”

–  Geerte Udo, Director at Amsterdam & Partners

Amsterdam has been making waves with its innovative strategies to ensure a more livable city for its residents. Stay Away campaigns, cruise ship bans, and reimagining its Red Light District are just a few of the bold approaches that have captured headlines. But what defines a “visitor of value” in this context, and how does a destination go about shaping policies that support such a vision? 

We had the privilege of speaking with Geerte Udo, Director at Amsterdam & Partners, who shed light on these questions and more. Amsterdam & Partners is a destination management organization bringing fresh ideas to meet the demands of modern travel – and modern life in the city. Geerte explained how their unique setup allows for more agile responses to the challenges facing Amsterdam.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How Amsterdam & Partners is set up and how it benefits the organization.
• How “Stay Away” campaigns evolved over time.
• What’s behind the concept of “visitors of value.”
• Why social and ecological sustainability are both important in managing a destination.
• Theories on issues that will dictate travel behaviour in the near future.

Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favourite podcast player to join us on this journey.

Show notes

Amsterdam & Partners – A public-private foundation aimed at strengthening the reputation of the Amsterdam Metropolitan Area among residents, visitors and businesses.

*NOTE: this podcast mentions the “Stay Away” campaign. We want to clarify that the campaign is put on by the city of Amsterdam, not Amsterdam & Partners.

Episode transcript

Geerte Udo: if we do not invest in a more sustainable future, and then we talk about social sustainability, so beneficial for more people and much more equal. Ecological sustainability, so better for the planet, and of course economically sustainable as well, that you will be out of business in five to 10 years. And then it’s not out of business from tourism, then it’s out of business of being an attractive city to live and to work and to recreate. 

David Archer: Hello, and welcome to Travel Beyond, where we partner with leading destinations to explore the greatest challenges facing communities and the planet surfacing their most inspiring solutions. 

I’m David Archer, Editorial Manager at Destination Think. And I’m recording from the village of Daajing Giids, British Columbia, which is in Haida Gwaii, the territory of the Haida Nation. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: And I am Sarah Raymond de Booy, Associate Creative Director at Destination Think. I’m recording from Seattle, Washington on Coast Salish land, specifically that of the Duwamish, Suquamish, Stillaguamish, and Muckleshoot people. On this podcast, we look at the role of travel and choose to highlight destinations that are global leaders. 

David Archer: We talk to the change makers who are addressing regenerative travel through action in their communities, and often from the bottom up. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Of course, we’re actively looking for the best examples of efforts to regenerate economies, communities, and ecosystems. So be sure to reach out if you have a story to share with us. 

David Archer: Last episode we heard from Hedwig Sietsma, the Climate Policy Director at KLM. And this time, we’re going to speak with Geerte Udo at Amsterdam and Partners. That’s an organization that holds a role that is, in part, similar to many DMOs and it has been evolving into a destination management organization recently. 

So welcome to Amsterdam, Sara.

Sara Raymond de Booy: Well, Thank you, David. And David, you have not been to Amsterdam, right? 

David Archer: That’s correct. I have not. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Well, what do you think of when you think of Amsterdam? 

David Archer: Hmm. Well the first thing that comes to mind is probably the canals. And that has a lot to do with the photos that I see from people like yourself who have visited there but, I also have admired, like many people do, the, the attitude towards cycling and bicycles. Just the sheer number of people that are using bikes to get around and also the infrastructure.

Like, how the bicycles connect with train systems and those big bicycle traffic circles. I don’t know what you call that, but, I always like seeing that. And I also kind of think about crowds just because of the work that we do at Destination Think, and we think about how tourism affects places. And Amsterdam’s been one of those spots that’s sometimes in a sticky situation with crowding. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Yeah, and your, your bicycle on crowd chat is reminding me of, all of the etiquette. Around bicycles and commuting on bicycles that might not come as natural to somebody who’s not, spent a lot of time there. So, as a exclusive pedestrian, most of the time when I was in Amsterdam that came into play a few times. 

 So what have you heard about Amsterdam lately? 

David Archer: Well, that, again, has a lot to do with our work. In particular, I’ve heard about a campaign called Stay Away, which is put on by the City of Amsterdam*. And that’s one that made some waves in the last couple of months because it has told people to stay away if they don’t behave a certain way.

And we’re here to talk a bit about that. I also see a lot of headlines recently, like Amsterdam’s Council has banned cruise ships from the city center, and that city center is one of those very crowded spots often. The airport has also crossed my radar, so Schiphol airport limits flights to prevent emissions. I don’t know the details on that, but it is, I believe a world first for an airport to limit flights for that reason. And they’ve also come up with some ideas like banning private jets, starting to put into practice some of the principles we’ve been talking about with sustainability, and kind of dealing with the impact of travel related to the environment. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Yeah, I think Amsterdam was, for me, probably one of the places I remember hearing about a few years ago with issues, related to Airbnb and the impact on the local community and making sure that residents are still able to, to live within the city center and make that city what it is, too.

David Archer: Yeah, that’s right. AirBnB. That’s a story that’s resonating in so many different places including here in Canada. I saw some numbers recently about, the number of visitors coming to Amsterdam, or coming to the Netherlands, excuse me. And how that, crowding is likely to, to go on in some way because, NBTC shares the estimates that the number of incoming visitors to the Netherlands could grow by 50% from 18 million in 2017 to 29 million in 2030, and this number of international visitors could go up to 42 million by 2030, if the growth enjoyed in the past few years, keeps progressing exponentially. That number or that estimation comes before Covid, but nonetheless, uh, it’s a, it’s a pretty steep growth curve, I’d say. So those are some of the issues that we’re grappling with around Netherlands and Amsterdam in this conversation.

So there’s lots to learn. Let’s go listen in on Destination Think CEO Rodney Payne with Geerte Udo, Director at Amsterdam and Partners.

Rodney Payne: Could you start just by telling me your name what you do and where we are?

Geerte Udo: Yes. My name is Geerte Udo and I’m the Director of Amsterdam and Partners.

Rodney Payne: Can you tell me about the city we’re in?

Geerte Udo: Yes. We’re in Amsterdam at the moment, and Amsterdam and Partners works for the city of Amsterdam and for 32 other municipalities in the surrounding area of Amsterdam.

We focus on three target groups: residents, businesses, including convention startup and investors, and on visitors, business visitors and leisure visitors. And what we do in particular is that we improve the reputation of the Metropolitan area for all these three different target And we guide residents, visitors, and business alike through the known, but also and maybe much more the unknown parts of our whole area. 

Rodney Payne: You don’t just focus on tourists and that’s not always the case in organizations like yours. Can you tell me about how you see those three groups, residents, visitors, and businesses, and where there’s alignment and where there’s friction? 

Geerte Udo: The reason why we focus on these three different target groups is because we think at the end, next to all the beautiful architecture, culture, and nature and all the other assets that cities in general have. The people make the city what it is. And if you go back in history, people settled at places where they could work.

So cities and destinations that have a city element are built around places where people live and work. And if you do it well, visitors are interested to see what you’re doing. And also benefit or enjoy what you have. So that is why we think you should always have an integrated or a holistic approach on the people that are active in your city.

And these are the residents, the businesses, the visitors, leisure and business visitors. And that’s why we, luckily, talk to all these three target groups.

Rodney Payne: I think the rest of the world probably thinks you are quite lucky that you’ve been doing that a long time because I think a lot of other places have focused a lot on getting visitors to help businesses and not knowing or not thinking about what is the impact for residents and places go on a journey of their own where you eventually hit some kind of limits that results in something else you need to consider right, environmentally, socially or from an infrastructure perspective. What are some of the challenges that you experience of thinking about all three of those stakeholder groups?

Geerte Udo: Yeah. What I think is that up till 2015, most of the tourism industry partners also added benefit to cities and destinations for residents as well.

We should not forget that 30% of the public transport in Amsterdam is financed by visitors. And huge part of our large, high quality cultural offer is also financed by visitors, Dutch visitors, international visitors, et cetera. So I think the tourism industry used to have a sort of logical contribution to the livability, the improvement of the livability of the residents.

I think after 2015 when we saw the enormous growth because accommodation prices dumped the traffic prices or the prices for travel went down a lot and the general economic income rose. That was a growth that nobody predicted, and that’s why we found for the first time that we can have a negative effect of this tourism industry as well. And yes in, in facing these challenges and try to change it, to go back actually to the phrase that it should be beneficial always for residents, the visitor economy. We think we are in a lucky position that we talk to these three target groups. But it starts with the question, what is a healthy and a beneficial visitor economy that is beneficial for residents, but you’re still open as a city to welcome visitors that also want to enjoy and get enriched by everything we have on offer.

Rodney Payne: Can you give me a high-level explanation of your strategy, the visitor economy vision for 2035?

Geerte Udo: Yeah. That is the awkward thing, that the Covid pandemic gave us the time and space to step back, and if I talk about we, it’s Amsterdam and Partners, we have 700 partners that are governmental partners, but also cultural partners, knowledge institution, of course, business partners, but also residents. And in a time of Covid, we could step back and say, okay, maybe we discussed a bit too much upfront to the pandemic on what we do not want.

We do not want stag parties that just waste our city and don’t contribute anything to livability. We do not want huge group that block our streets or a bicycle path, but we said, can we step back and maybe phrase the 80% that we actually agree on what we do want as an inclusive and sustainable metropolitan area with a healthy visitor economy? And that’s why we started a co-creation session. 

Our media and politics, it almost forces us into discussing and debating and fighting over what we disagree on. But if you step back, you can focus on the 80% that you at least actually do agree on. And everybody knew, if you’re a private partner, cultural institution, knowledge institute, or a resident, that if we do not invest in a more sustainable future, and then we talk about social sustainability, so beneficial for more people and much more equal. Ecological sustainability, so better for the planet, and of course economically sustainable as well, that you will be out of business in five to 10 years. And then it’s not out of business from tourism, then it’s out of business of being an attractive city to live and to work and to recreate.

And if you start back with all these groups and you say, where do we start? We start, are you working to create a better future for the next generation in this metropolitan area? Everybody says yes, and from there you have a common goal to work on.

Rodney Payne: It’s very refreshing to hear about finding alignment in a time where people are getting more and more polarized.

Geerte Udo: It’s the biggest challenge to keep in contact with everybody. People that do agree and disagree and keep in this discussion because again, the outer world forces us to polarize. 

Rodney Payne: Yeah. It’s so true. You have a very, what I would say is very confident statement that I want to read to you and see what your reaction is. “Visitors, companies, conferences, and talent are welcome, if they add value to the city and its residents and do not cause disturbances or disruptions.”

I love it.

Where did that come from?

Geerte Udo: Well, because like I said, from that holistic perspective, we have to give space to each other. But if you go another way back, why do people tolerate each other and prefer to live in groups instead of living alone?

That is what cities also are. They’re living organisms. So everybody is welcome as long as you contribute something to our life. It would be awkward to say, no, visitors are welcome despite the fact that they harm our livability. How do we facilitate residents to live here with a high quality standard business to do business, but not only to make money and profit for the city without giving anything in return.

And that is the powerful part that we see, because we believe it’s really possible to have a healthy and sustainable visitor economy where you welcome visitors that do add value to your destination.

Rodney Payne: Were people ready for that conversation? 

Geerte Udo: I think every conversation that tips the point of transition or big change is a difficult one, because I think it’s not within human beings to be very open and happy about structural changes that really will have impact on your personal role and on your business. So easy is not the right word. I think if you take enough time, again, to see where you do agree. I do agree that a hotel needs to have business. I do not agree on the fact that short-term focus is more beneficial for the city than a long-term focus, and also not for the company. 

So I’m not asking them to change and lose visitors. It’s not true. Visitors will come to Amsterdam because we are attractive. And I think we can be front runner by showing the world how you can do it in a sustainable and inclusive way with respect for the residents.

And that is, if you make that shift, it’s an easier one. And again, there is always 5% to 10% in business. They say to me, I don’t care. It’s not my vision. I just want to earn money tomorrow more, and I wait for long legislation and if they forbid it, then I will stop.

We’re not a fairy that goes around them spreading magic, and I only think if you look into change, there’s always 20% who’s really making the change happen. 60% is in the middle. We’re like maybe 20% is at the back. Going stop it. Stop it. Block it. We invest in 20 and the 60%.

Not in the last 21. They will jump on the carriage or they will fall off. It’s fine. We’re not saying that we have the truth. We only think if we have the right conversation with the right people and making small steps, you will realize a change and hopefully it’s the change that we predict.

Rodney Payne: Do you think organizations like yours in places like this around the world can have influence? 

Geerte Udo: Absolutely. But it depends really big time how your business is organized. So if you’re dependent on only private income from the hotel industry, it’s really harder to make this change, because a lot of these changes are owned by huge investors, stakeholders that want to make money in five years and then sell the company. That’s much harder than in our case, because we have the cultural institutions, the knowledge institutions, the governmental parts that we only have 6% of our partners is from the tourism industry. So it’s easier to have this conversation, because then we can focus on all these people in tourism ministry that are already up runners, because that is the good thing of this time.

And not that we’re preaching and people don’t listen. Everybody knows it’s everywhere. It’s in your daily life, it’s in your family. A lot of people have kids as well, and the awareness that we really have to make the change now, not in tourism, but in our lives to do a difference is much louder this time. So that makes it easier to also rethink our business, and especially for business people. If you can show better business in the future, they’re open. And if you say like, if we’re a sustainable destination that’s inclusive and beneficial for residents, you will have brilliant business in 10 years. If we kill the soul of our city because the domination of visitors will be too hard and will be visitors that do not add value, you’ll be out of business, because you got laws and legislation that will forbid more and more.

Rodney Payne: I love it. Can you tell me about how you think about attracting the right visitor and identifying the right visitor?

Geerte Udo: Yeah, that is always a hard discussion as well, because we’re not a quality police. We’re not saying, you’re right, you’re wrong.

We’re an open and tolerant city, and that’s why we say everybody is welcome to the city, if you add something to the livability or the quality of life of residents. So it’s very diverse. It’s not about rich visitors. Also young visitors that are here to get inspired by the architecture or the culture or the atmosphere in town. We would love to welcome them. 

It’s only if you have respect for the city and preferably do things that locals would do, because that is the easiest line to support the livability of residents. So if you only go to the Red Light District, and jump in a coffee shop, and drink tequilas at a bar for a low budget and you never met in your 48 hours a Dutch person, you’re probably not adding a lot for us as residents.

If you just go here and when you’re for the first time, of course, you go to the canals, but maybe you go to a bar where locals go, or a restaurant that you support. And we have high-quality cuisine nowadays because we have also a lot of people that visit our town. If it would only depend on the locals, half of the restaurants should be closed.

So that is where it’s easy. So it’s not about discussing who owns the right on quality. It’s for us, logical thinking, where do you add value? And again, a hotel, they have beds for visitors. That’s logical. But you can do a lot in the social component. What do you do with your employees? Do you have social programs? Do you help to welcome people that have difficulties finding a job? What do you do with refugees? How sustainable is your kitchen? Which kind of fruit and products and vegetables you use? Do you have a bar that’s maybe also interesting for residents, or you don’t care at all? So there are on every level, there are possibilities to look how you can make it as beneficial as possible also for residents.

And that’s when we said, talk about respectful visitors or whatever name you give. It’s not a stamp your quality or not. It’s really rethink, what is the added value of this guest for our destination? 

Rodney Payne: Your recent Stay Away campaign got some attention. Can you tell me a little bit about the campaign –

Geerte Udo: Sure.

Rodney Payne: – and the reaction?

Geerte Udo: It’s a very interesting experiment, the Stay Away campaign.

And why we call an experiment is because three no, five years ago I guess, we launched the first Enjoy and Respect campaign.

And that was really launched from the theory of communication that if you try to influence behavior, you have to give people another option. 

We found out, after testing what the results of the campaign was, that a lot of people got the message like, oh, I was never aware that it was such a nuisance for the residents, but it didn’t change anything in the behavior. So then we said, okay, we have to get another kind of campaign. We struggled a lot with it, because we know at the end the behavior only changes if you reorganize the old city center.

If you have the offer we have nowadays, you will have the guests that we have nowadays. Everybody knows that, also City Hall knows, also, the people that are in tourism business know, but 80, 85% of our tourism partners, they really dislike this group of guests. You don’t want them in your hotel either. 

So it starts with place changing, and the place making there. We’re working on it. But that would take 5, 10, 15 years. So we have to do something in communication. So we said, okay, we know that the Stay Away campaign, that was called Enjoy & Respect before, had some effect, but not the effect we want.

And then in co-creation with City Hall, we concluded that it’s actually better to do the campaign from City Hall, not as a campaign to influence behavior, but in a messaging campaign. Just saying, enough is enough. We’re fed up with it. If this is your only goal, stay away. And we used the knowledge from communication that we know this target audience, to be specific. They are not very interested in moral aspects. They’re really, you can hit them in their heart or their feelings or thoughts by having things that are important for them, and that is money. And that is the future, and that is your job. So that is why it’s built. The good thing about the campaign is that because it’s so bold, it went worldwide.

That is the good part of being true to your DNA as a city. We’re a very open and tolerant, but also a very pragmatic city. So this is it. Of course we had a lot of partners in tourism ministry saying: What! This is very unpolite. Now everybody will stay away. We will lose conventions. The respected visitor will stay away. I said, it’s not true. People that organize interesting conventions at the Rai, they don’t care that drunken stag parties are not welcome anymore, and that is what you see. 

We got a lot of positive reactions from other cities saying, finally. Prague, Barcelona, they all have the same issues. They said, wow, how honest. Because that’s actually what we always think, but don’t dare to communicate. 

Why do I call it an experiment? I’m not sure if it’s the right word, but if it really has effect on this specific target group, that it will come less. We will measure that in within three and six months.

Rodney Payne: I think it’s really powerful to hear you talk about the sort of policy changes within the city in combination with communication messaging, and I think we often try to do one without the other. 

Geerte Udo: But that is always why we see place branding and place marketing without connection with placemaking. It’s an empty shell. It’s the same if you talk about sustainability. If our hotels are not changing, if our industry is not changing, if our canal boats are not turning electric, how can I tell this story to other people that we’re a sustainable metropolitan area?

It’s impossible. So you always have, as the destination organization, be in contact with the people that built your metropolitan area. 

Rodney Payne: It’s a really good example of how one person or one organization can lead.

And we were talking about it in conferences around the world, and I’m sure it was daunting and a bit nerve wracking launching that campaign, but it causes everyone to think differently, both locally and around the world. And one little thing like that can have a big ripple effect. Another example that we’ve seen is a conversation around limiting visitors. Can you talk about that?

Geerte Udo: What City Hall said is that in the future, if you look at the data, the United Nation predicts that in 2050 two thirds of the world population will live in metropolitan cities. We know people that live in cities, visit cities. So if the world economy keeps on growing, we know that we will host much more visitors. So the City Hall said that we have to prepare now. What do we do, because it’s a different issue. The misbehavement and a nuisance is one issue. That’s a certain target group. The other issue that we have is that we are an old city center with narrow streets, and there’s a fight for public space between residents. People that work here and people visit here and you should organize the space, but then you have to look into the rhythms of the space and also the people. 

So that’s why City Hall said we have to take measurements to be prepared on how to manage quantity. The most difficult part is that nobody has the answer. There’s no city that knows the answer. 

We’re lucky that we are in the City DNA organization, and I’m in the board to discuss these topics, like, how can you be an open and tolerant city, but also manage your quantity so that it doesn’t harm the livability of residents? I’m not sure if putting a target on a number, 18 million people, is the good focus, but that’s the decision of City Hall that they made.

The positive part is it puts pressure on the topic. We have to start discussing, because 18 million or 20 million is maybe doable, but if it becomes 30, 40, 50, and we do not reorganize our city different, then the pressure is becoming too heavy. So the good thing is that the pressure that puts it on a topic. What I dislike is the focus on the number.

Because if we have 18 million people from England, having one big stag party, for me it’s way too much. If we have 18 million visitors that also go into the metropolitan area that have been here before, so they prefer to go to the hidden gems and not the mainstream, then it’s easy done. And even if they come in different seasons, then it’s easy done and there’s maybe some space for growth.

Rodney Payne: It’s interesting to get to a point where you can have a dialogue about limits and what’s the optimal level of visitation. Your national government has climate legislation with a target that’s enshrined in law for 2030. And the city has a target of 55% emission reductions by 2030. How does the tourism sector respond to that?

Geerte Udo: We have, luckily in our renewed visitor economy, vision already set. We have to do a lot of things to make it more ecological, sustainable, the whole tourism industry. And to start the most sustainable way of sustainable travel is not travel. That’s the easiest.

Some people disagree because if you’re at home, you use a lot of energy and fuels and you waste a lot as well. But that’s disputable. What we say is make small steps and big decisions. So no plastic straws in the restaurants and cafes is an easy step. Seeing like, how can we use, with the whole group, more green energy is a easy step to make. How to say, okay, we have to get rid of every car, taxi that is not electric is a long step because that goes along with what we expect from residents, and of course we want to get a lower car amount in the city center. That will help. What we can do from communication is support people that are traveling within Europe.

Take the train. Why not? It’s three and a half hours from Amsterdam Central Station to Paris. That’s perfect. That’s the same time amount that you waste if you go from here to Schiphol and wait and board and up and down and controls, et cetera. You have an easy ride. It’s the same with London. It’s the same. So we really support these kind of initiatives. We promote it. We do also with conference visitors. We say if you live by, and live by is a flight of one and a half hours and less, and you have a direct connection or maybe one support, do it because you will help us all in Europe to make it a more sustainable Europe for you as a resident. But we have to make the change together.

It’s not a change we can make in Amsterdam, nor in the Netherlands we have to do it as Europe. 

Rodney Payne: Are you worried about sustainability?

Geerte Udo: Yes, I’m worried about social and ecological sustainability because I think we’re in a huge time of change. I think we don’t realize really what’s happening, in general, as a person, as a resident of Amsterdam, as a person that works here, but also from visitor economy perspective.

If you see already how temperatures are rising, this will have a huge influx on how people travel around the world. There will be destinations that are way too hot. There will be destinations that are not accessible because the danger on floods is too big. And that is not the main issue.

The main issue is that the people will not live there anymore, and then you’ve got a huge refugee problem. And it’s not a problem, but it’s a challenge that we have to face, that our places in the world will be livable. And places will not be. That’s what I’m worried about. 

But also there’s social sustainability. I think capitalism brought us a lot, but it overwhelmed other parts. And if we want to fight social disbalance, so make sure that everybody who’s born on this earth, has a chance to become who he, she, or it is. We have to really make a huge change. And that is the only way how we as human species will survive, I think.

Am I negative? No. I see a lot of young people and they’re facing the real challenges. I always say, me as a person who’s almost 50, I have to support with my brains, with my knowledge, with my power, with my money, whatever. But they’re building the future and I see an enormous energy to change it. So I do believe that we can change and I hope we all believe because that generates the positive power. 

Rodney Payne: What do you see as tourism’s place in a future that is livable?

Geerte Udo: I think we have to have a vision and be honest.

So I think as long as we as human beings exist, we do travel and we’re curious. So we will keep traveling anyway, as long as it’s possible. So I think you should keep that in mind. How we do travel, how fast we travel, how far we travel, with which mobility access, that should be debatable. For us, for instance, as a destination, it’s much more interesting nowadays, again, to welcome everybody that wants to visit us in a respectful way.

But we do not focus anymore on big groups from China that are just two hours in the city and move on because they do Europe in five days. They should do what they do. But for us as a city, it doesn’t add any value. 

What does add value is a lot of European visitors, because they have been here before and what happens with people that have been here before, one part will do the same every time they come back. They’re just risk averse. They don’t want to do anything else because what they did last time was so great. They do it again. Then at least they know for sure it’s great. These people, you should guide in a way of timing. Tell them like, I know you will go on the canal boat and to the Van Gogh Museum. But maybe you should go to the canal boat in the morning and the museum in the afternoon.

Because if we see in data, everybody goes to culture in the morning and then on the canal boat in the afternoon. That’s human behavior. We all say we want to have a unique experience, but look in the data, it’s not. That’s one part. So you can guide them, not get them off the beaten track because they’re not interested, but in rhythms of time. This other part, huge group of European travelers, they love to get guided off the beaten track. Because they have been in Amsterdam, they have seen the canals and they want to discover more. There, you can really seduce them to go to the hidden gems. It only works if demand and offer are matched.

That is the basic golden line. It only works if there is a logical reason to go. If there’s nothing to happening or nothing happening and nothing to visit, nobody will go there. 

Rodney Payne: Thank you for sitting down with us today 

Geerte Udo: Thank you.

Rodney Payne: It’s a conversation more people need to be having. 

Geerte Udo: I think so, too.

Rodney Payne: I appreciate the openness. 

David Archer: This has been Travel Beyond presented by Destination Think and you just heard from Geerte Udo, Director at Amsterdam & Partners. We’ll include links to more resources on the blog for this episode at destinationthink.com. My co-host and co-producer is Sarah Raymond de Booy. This episode has been produced and has theme music composed by me, David Archer. Lindsay Payne, and Annika Rautiola provided production support.

We would like to thank NBTC as always for their support in creating this podcast season. And you can help more people find this show by subscribing and by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 

Next time we’ll take a trip up to Friesland on the north coast and explore how circular economies are reshaping the visitor experience, resident lifestyle, and business opportunities in the region.

See you then.