“The responsibility I believe, as a lodge owner or a business owner, is to follow […] First Nations culture and traditions, taking what you only need.” — Jimmy Lulua

What does it take to build strong relationships between Indigenous communities and tourism businesses? For Jimmy Lulua, it starts with respect, trust, and a long-term commitment.

As a past Elected Chief of Xeni Gwet’in First Nations Government and now an Indigenous business relations consultant with Bella Coola Heli Sports, Jimmy knows how meaningful partnerships can create opportunity while respecting Aboriginal title.

In 2014, a landmark title case fundamentally changed how development takes place in Indigenous territories. The ruling was the first in Canadian history to formally recognize Aboriginal title to a specific area, affirming the Tsilhqot’in Nation’s jurisdiction over their land. “The title enables us to say yes or no to anything in our area,” Jimmy explains, “we have full jurisdiction to manage how we see fit.” It represents a shift toward a model grounded in consent, collaboration, and cultural values. 

Bella Coola Heli Sports, located within the nearby unceded territory of the Nuxalk Nation, is putting this approach into action. By fostering a strong relationship with the Nuxalk Nation, the company is setting a precedent for how businesses and First Peoples can work together. For Jimmy, the opportunity is clear: “I think tourism is going to be the next big thing. But it’s going to be all based off First Nations consent, First Nations values.”

By aligning with Aboriginal title and Indigenous leadership, businesses can create long-term success while contributing to a more equitable future.

In this episode, you will learn: 

• How First Nations’ land rights are reshaping tourism opportunities and management.
• Why developing relationships with Indigenous communities is key to offering meaningful and respectful tourism experiences.
• How tourism can serve as a platform for reconciliation, cultural education, and empowering Indigenous voices.
• How regions still developing tourism offerings are well-suited to become leaders in eco-friendly, culturally rich tourism.

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Show notes

Bella Coola Heli Sports — A heli-skiing operator in Bella Coola, British Columbia, offering guided backcountry skiing experiences.

Nuxalk Nation — An Indigenous First Nation whose people have lived in and around the Bella Coola Valley for millennia, maintaining a rich cultural heritage, language, and governance system deeply connected to their lands and waterways.

Tsilhqot’in Decision — A landmark Supreme Court of Canada ruling that granted the Tŝilhqot’in people full ownership, benefit, and control over their traditional territory. It marked the first legal recognition of Aboriginal title in Canadian history

Episode transcript

This transcript was generated using AI and has been lightly reviewed for accuracy.

Jimmy Lulua: The responsibility, I believe, is as a lodge owner or a business owner is to follow, you know, first Nations culture and traditions and taking what you only need, not taking more than you have to. I think tourism is gonna be the, the next big thing, but it’s gonna be all based off First Nations consent. Uh, first Nations values.

David Archer: Welcome back to Travel Beyond. I’m David Archer from Destination Think recording from Haida Gwaii, the territory of the Haida Nation off the north coast of British Columbia in Canada. On this show, we look at travel’s role in making a better world, and we highlight leading destinations and change makers.

Our guests are taking local action that the world can learn from, their helping to regenerate ecosystems, communities, and economies, and they’re often making positive change happen from the bottom up. Many of the voices we’ve highlighted are part of the Destination Think Collective, a peer group of ambitious forward thinking destinations working toward a better future for travel and the planet. Members represent places like Banff and Lake Louise, Cape Breton, Seattle, Copenhagen, Queenstown Lakes, and several others. 

Today we’re back in the Cariboo Chilcotin Coast, and for those interested in Indigenous tourism development, this is one region to keep track of. And in this episode, we’re going to explore some more elements of the theme of how tourism can facilitate truth and reconciliation, a topic that we’ve heard about from Mike Retasket and Cheryl Chapman, or Sunrise When the Salmon Come, two of our previous guests. 

Today’s conversation delves a little bit into the recognition of Indigenous title or Aboriginal title that is starting to happen in some places across Canada. For those who don’t know Aboriginal title cases like the Tŝilhqot’in title, recognition that covers a portion of the Cariboo Chilcotin Coast are reshaping how land is managed and who holds authority over it.

And these legal decisions affirm the rights of Indigenous communities to their ancestral lands. Impacting everything from resource management to tourism development and beyond. And as a personal example, it’s been a big year for land title in Haida Gwaii. In 2024, the governments of both BC and Canada passed legislation formally recognizing the Haida nation’s Aboriginal title throughout Haida Gwaii, which was a very exciting and important step in a decades long reconciliation process.

And the decisions were warmly welcomed, I’d say by both Haida and non Haida community members here. There are still plenty of Haida Title Now signs on windows and doors around town. And one practical and immediate outcome of this is that the Haida Nation and BC government will no longer have to argue for title recognition in court, and instead negotiate directly on issues like land management, which will no doubt save everybody a lot of money and time.

As tourism professionals, Aboriginal title is really important to learn about because it can guide us in building respectful relationships with the Indigenous communities whose lands we settlers visit and build businesses on. And I’d like to see it set the stage for a new era of partnership where Indigenous governance and stewardship play a central role in how tourism is managed and how visitors experience the culture of a place.

We heard a great example of that two episodes ago with the Barkerville Town in Historic Park and how that storytelling is changing in the visitor experience there. And they aren’t the only ones. Many tourism businesses in Canada and elsewhere are taking Indigenous relationships very seriously, including Bella Coola Heliports, whose owner Beat Steiner we heard from last episode. 

Today we’re speaking with Jimmy Lulua, past Elected Chief of Xeni Gwet’in First Nations Government until 2023. Jimmy now spends some of his time as an Indigenous business relations consultant for Bella Coola Helisports, and he has some advice on where we can start as we build relationships across cultures with respect and over the long term.

Here’s Jimmy Lulua, speaking with Rodney Payne.

Jimmy Lulua: Well, my name is, uh, Jimmy Lulua. Uh, my parents are Sunny Betty Lulua. My valley, um, on my mom’s side is from down here in Bella Coola, our great grandpa’s from down here. So that’s kind of how I, I’m connected to Bella Coola, but, uh, my full job or part-time job is, uh, working with, uh, Bella Coola Heli Sports on the business relations and, and keeping the relations going with with Nuxalk here.

Rodney Payne: What do you love most about this part of the world? 

Jimmy Lulua: I think personally it’s the people, you know, the, the culture, the, the, how we identify ourselves. And plus, I love the mountains here and I’m an avid skier, so I absolutely love skiing. 

Rodney Payne: Yeah. You went on a heli ski trip a few years back. Can you tell me what that was like?

Jimmy Lulua: Yeah, well I’ve been, heli skiing the bay for the last couple years, I guess. And part of, part of the contract is I get to go skiing. So it’s a big, uh, it’s a big bonus. 

Rodney Payne: How do you work with Bella Coola Heli Sports? 

Jimmy Lulua: So, how I work with Bella Coola Heli Sports is I, I maintain the meetings and the relationship with Nuxalk, which is the First Nation, local First Nations here.

Uh, they’re the caretakers. So just making sure that we’re, we’re in good standing and, you know, in the past it, I don’t think it has been very good and. Lately it’s been pretty awesome. Uh, we’re seeing them regularly and we’re making more headway with, uh, little incentives that I, I think, that are, are, are going our way and I think it’s gonna be a, a good relationship.

And I think it’s gonna be, I always look, when I, when I do any work, I always look at meaningful work stuff that’s going to set precedence. Uh, for any other business or first Nations to follow. And I believe working with Bela Coola Heli Sports and the relationship that we’re doing, it’s going to pave, pave the road, uh, for any business to follow.

Rodney Payne: How do you think that winter sports and skiing and the work you are doing as an example, can help give people a different perspective on their world? 

Jimmy Lulua: Well, the, the heli skiing is one piece of it. I think it, it has to be year round, so meaning the summer has, there’s some, something has to happen in the summer.

And Bella Coola is a very unique area where they have opportunity for world class hiking, uh, biking, uh, climbing, uh, the ocean. The ocean has its own set of, uh, interests and pieces. There. There’s hot springs here. But all that’s not accessible if you don’t have a relationship with First Nations. And I think the, the landscape has changed for, I dunno what you want to call it, this political or, uh, first Nations are being seen now because they have jurisdiction and that’s no longer a myth.

I was saying in a presentation earlier and saying that, uh, we have full jurisdiction and where I’m from, we have full jurisdiction of our area where we have the right to say yes or no. 

Rodney Payne: What’s the best advice you can give to, to businesses or tourism businesses when they’re, they’re thinking about working with First Nations in their local area?

Jimmy Lulua: So the best advice I can give to businesses working with First Nations, I think it’s, uh, to build a trust and trust is viewed in many different ways. But like Beat, uh, he’s the CEO, Bella Coola Heli Sports, and he believes in just starting. But, uh, you know, but I, I believe in. Building the trust but also maintaining.

And that’s stuff I’ve been working with him on. To say that, you know, it’s one thing just to start, but uh, you know, it’s to maintain and to follow and understand their traditions and culture. ’cause that’s kind of where I get paid to come in and educate him on what’s kind of right or wrong and what’s doable, not doable.

Rodney Payne: What responsibilities do you think come with the privilege of coming to such an untouched place like this for, for visitors? 

Jimmy Lulua: Privilege is probably the. Uh, it’s probably like, uh, there’s an unlimited possibility here. I think there’s so much potential here, and I think that’s a lot for a lot of First Nations areas, but, uh, I think a lot of first Nations that go gone through lots of, uh, damage residential school, and a lot of them are still parents, so some of ’em are not ready.

So you, I think the being patient, uh, and going at their speed, but potential wise, there’s, it’s unlimited here. 

Rodney Payne: What responsibilities do you think we have in terms of stewarding and looking after the lands that we’re on? 

Jimmy Lulua: Well, the responsibility I believe is as a lodge owner or a business owner is to follow, you know, follow First Nations culture and traditions and taking what you only need, not taking more than you have to.

As you look at the landscape of mining and logging, if you drive through the territory across BC, you’ll see a lot of logging blocks. They basically rape the land, so like. What’s left? If you look at the inventory of BC as is as a whole, the entire BC logging has done a lot of damage. Mining has done a lot of damage, so what’s left?

What’s left is tourism. I think tourism is the next logging industry or mining industry, if you wanna call it that. Once it’s hit, its maximum potential, and there’s proven, proven formulas. I think tourism is gonna be the the next big thing, but it’s gonna be. All based off First Nations consent, uh, first Nations values, um, steward and land.

So I think that’s the responsibility is being able to work with the nature and what it can do and can’t do. But also with First Nations willingness too. 

Rodney Payne: I think that’s not just in British Columbia here. I think that’s in a lot of, uh, places around the world that that same sentiment holds really true.

Jimmy Lulua: Yeah. 

Rodney Payne: For those who don’t know or you know, may maybe are outside of Canada, what was the significance of the title case for your community? 

Jimmy Lulua: I think for myself, it’s, we were finally seen, we’re we’re stakeholders we’re, we’re seen as people finally, ’cause before that they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t see First Nations as people.

They were the poorest people in their own, in our own area, country. So I think the significance is we’re seen, we’re, we’re seen as valued, uh, a valid, uh, person. 

Rodney Payne: And what does that ruling or, or title enable now? 

Jimmy Lulua: Well, the title enables us to say yes or no to anything in our area. We have full jurisdiction to manage how we, how we, how we see fit.

Rodney Payne: How has that begun to shape opportunities available to you and your community? 

Jimmy Lulua: Well, I think the, the opportunities are, we’re starting to see business owners, uh, large stakeholders come to our table where that never was before. So you had people like Beat Steiner, CEO, Bella Coola Heli Sports came right to our table.

Like it, it brings in people like that, but also it brings in investors that come along with it too. So. Yeah, it brings a lot of opportunity. 

Rodney Payne: And when you, when you get to sit at the table like that, what are the, what are some of the values that you, you bring forward and advocate for and, and how do you see those being received?

Jimmy Lulua: Well, I’m not the chief anymore, but, uh, the five years that I’ve sat there, I would never stray far from our, our values or our teachings, but also a transparency being able to, if there was something big and it was gonna be presented in our territory, I publicly presented to our people. And try to educate them as much as I could.

And if they weren’t favorable or understood, they, they would just ask for time, which is, which is fine. But, uh, at the table I’d always think about fairness, but also follow our, our traditions and our culture, our values that tell us, um, right from wrong basically. 

Rodney Payne: Do you think the, the stories that we tell in, in marketing and tourism and the experiences that we give to people.

Do you think that can help with getting the truth out and, and maybe starting on the journey of reconciliation? 

Jimmy Lulua: I think so, yeah. Tourism has a, has a different flavor. It brings different people, I believe like a, we look at someone like a, a mining industry, we try to present it to them. I don’t think they would listen, but tourism, it’s, it’s people worldwide that have a, they come into a new area.

They’re, they’re open, their, their mind’s a little more open-minded. So I think it would definitely educate worldwide, which I think is needed. Uh, ’cause the local, local industry that if you look at a mining company or a forestry company, they’re gonna talk bad about tourism just because it’s, it’s in a biased opinion, but a lot of them haven’t done the work of relationship building too.

So they’re kind of in not good standing. I think the education through tourism is, it’s, it’s a big, big opportunity, but I’m not sure if all First Nations understand that. 

Rodney Payne: What role do you think that guests who come here can play in, uh, the broader movement towards sustainability and, and sort of the tie in towards reconciliation?

Jimmy Lulua: Well, education, education’s the biggest, uh, I think the biggest factor for myself, uh, lot of. Tourism that come from out of town. They don’t have the education of understanding First Nations. It’s not even in our universities yet, like our universities are so far behind. So the education piece of understanding the First Nations culture, that’s the role.

Rodney Payne: When you look sort of five or 10 years into the future, what do you, what do you see, what do you, what do you hope for and what do you imagine it will be like in, in this part of the world? 

Jimmy Lulua: Well, this part of the world, I would, I would say Bella Coola. Uh, I’m not the chief anymore in my area, so I can only say what I, what I have abilities to help navigate.

And I think Bella Coola Nuxalk territory is a, it’s a hidden gem. It’s a, it has so much potential here. So if things go right, I think in 20 years, this place could be the, could be a world class tourism operation. I, I would say multimillion dollar tourism here easily.

Rodney Payne: What are you most worried about for the future? 

Jimmy Lulua: I think it’s, uh, like a lot of our, I guess personally, I’m, of course I’m first Nations, but, uh, I’m worried about our people still in the same spot 20 years from now. I don’t know, because I’ve been in politics and I’ve seen the bureaucracy. It is not fast enough.

It doesn’t move fast enough. Government will not make decisions. So, you know, that’s kind of where I always say as a, as a leader in my own community, my own nation is, uh, we started making decisions for them. We tell them what we’re gonna do. We got tired of, uh, being told what to do by government, and he said, why?

Why are we always in, what do you call it, response mode. We should be getting into proactive thinking about what we’re gonna do. So that’s me as a leader. That’s what I was pushing. I was thinking more proactive, thinking more further down into the future. A lot of first nations are just in, uh, what do you call, survival mode.

So they’re not thinking about what’s coming next. They’re just thinking about how am I gonna put food in the table? I’m hoping in 20 years that’s gonna change. 

Rodney Payne: Yeah. I think that’s a common theme, not just in First Nations governments, but in, in politics and, and government generally at all levels is. That reactivity and, and sort of managing the day to day versus sort of how I think about leadership with one eye on the future and, and being proactive and really thinking about how do we build thriving society for the long term.

But yeah, I think that’s, that’s not just you that’s seeing and feeling that. I think that’s a common theme through many of the conversations we’ve had. What gives you the most hope? 

Jimmy Lulua: Well, the most hope is, you know, like the 2014 decision was a, in our traditions, we always talk about legends and stories and they, they have this story about the raven stealing the sun or stealing the fire.

And that’s a story I share across the world. I’ve gone to New Zealand, I’ve gone to a few different places, New York and shared that story with, uh, first Nations in that area. They come to see us and I would say we’re a light. We’ve stolen the fire from the government. We stole that sun or that peace and we want to share that story.

’cause that’s the moral of the story, is being able to share that, that fire, so everyone stays warm. So being able to share that title win and show the the plan and how it was achieved. I think First Nations having jurisdiction changes the landscape for the better for us as First Nations people because our people have struggled far too long.

That’s why that’s my, that’s what keeps me awake at night or. Wakes me up in the morning and says, uh, we’re gonna do some, do some good today. 

Rodney Payne: It’s a perfect note to end on. I really appreciate you sitting down with me and, and having a conversation. 

Jimmy Lulua: Yeah, welcome.

David Archer: This has been Travel Beyond presented by Destination. Think and you just heard Rodney Payne speaking with Jimmy Lulua about building trust and maintaining relationships for successful partnerships with First Nations. For more resources and show notes, visit the blog at destinationthink.com. This episode was produced and his theme music composed by me, David Archer.

Sarah Raymond de Booy is my co-producer. Lindsay Payne, Jamie Sterling and Cory Price provided production support. If you like what you hear, please take a moment to give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps more people find the show and we’ll be back next week. Talk to you then.