“I always believed that there is a fix. There is a solution to anything that we’ve done on this planet.” — Phil Saye

The connection between environmental restoration and tourism isn’t always obvious, but for Phil Saye, a veteran in Grenada’s restoration projects, the two are becoming increasingly intertwined.

Phil started the Grenada Artificial Reef Project in 2013 through his dive shop, Dive Grenada. The plan was to create an alternative environment for marine life to regenerate and to offset the damaging effects of climate change, coral bleaching, and overfishing. He did this by installing artificial stone pyramids on the seabed as an experiment. Within two years it was working. Not only is the project simple and repeatable, but it also creates exciting experiences for travellers.  

A diver swims next to artificial reef pyramids in Grenada.

His ongoing work restoring mangrove ecosystems embraces a similar big-picture approach. Through the Grenada Fund for Conservation, the project collaborates with the community to create a sense of responsibility for environmental protection through access and education. This includes an interpretive center and boardwalks through the forest, as well as supporting college-level training for field guides, which also creates valuable visitor experiences.

Phil sees a future where sustainable solutions like these are the main draw for visitors. And he wants to inspire others at a time when travellers are increasingly aware of their environmental impacts and conservation is becoming better integrated with destination management. “Leave some kind of legacy, don’t start something that completely relies on you,” he advises. “Do something that involves community, involves other people.”

In this episode of Travel Beyond, you’ll also learn:

• About the Grenada Artificial Reef Project, why it’s successful, and how it can be replicated.
• How mangrove forests have been restored in the wake of a 2004 hurricane.
• How restoration projects benefit the tourism industry in Grenada.
• About environmental successes Phil Saye has witnessed during his career.

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Show notes

Caribbean Conference on Sustainable Tourism Development – The Caribbean region’s main forum to discuss the issues, challenges and opportunities in sustainable tourism development.

Grenada Artificial Reef Project – A grassroots effort to create an effective, sustainable artificial reef structure that regenerates and recruits marine life.

Grenada Fund for Conservation – A non-profit, non-governmental organization that promotes and protects Grenada’s environment.

Episode transcript

Phil Saye: Within six months, I was blown away. Within two years, corals were growing. Uh, we have over 30 species of fish. It’s working beyond my wildest dreams. And the good thing about the artificial reef pyramids that we use, these could be scaled anywhere in the world, because we’re using basic construction blocks to build them.

You don’t need special tools, you don’t need any special skills. That’s easily transferable to anybody.

David Archer: Hello, and welcome back to Travel Beyond, where we partner with leading destinations to bring you inspiring solutions to the greatest challenges facing communities and the planet. I’m David Archer from Destination Think, recording from beautiful Haida Gwaii, the territory of the Haida Nation off the north coast of British Columbia.

Today’s solution comes from Grenada, a nation in the eastern Caribbean Sea. This year, Grenada hosted the Caribbean Conference on Sustainable Tourism Development, and that’s where Destination Think CEO Rodney Payne met a fellow conference speaker by the name of Phil Saye. Phil hasn’t always been in tourism, but he has devoted his career to environmental protection in several phases of life.

Originally from the UK, Phil served in the Royal Navy to enforce the Antarctic Treaty, and then in the early 2000s, he arrived in Grenada, bought a dive shop, and has led restoration projects that sometimes also provide exciting experiences for travellers, including a set of underwater pyramids. The Grenada Artificial Reef Project is what Phil calls a successful experiment to regrow coral reefs by installing artificial stone pyramids on the sea floor.

It’s also, he says, a simple proof of concept for other places. Phil is also involved with restoring mangrove forests, and one part of this interview that stuck with me is Phil’s deep satisfaction at seeing the long term regrowth of the mangrove trees, a very visible impact of restoration that people are able to enjoy today.

Alright, I’ll bring you the interview now. You’ll notice the audio quality is a little different than usual, but it provides a little atmosphere. You can picture them speaking in a Grenada hotel lobby in between conference sessions. Here’s Rodney Payne from Destination Think speaking with Phil Saye.

Phil Saye: I’m Phil Saye, and we’re in Grenada. 

Rodney Payne: Can you tell me a little bit about your background? 

Phil Saye: Okay, I’m originally from the United Kingdom. I was born and bred there. My real interest in conservation and the environment came back in the late 1970s when I was stationed in Antarctica for two years and we were there to protect the Antarctic Treaty.

While serving my time down there with the Royal Navy, I saw what this Earth and a continent should look like with not any intervention of man. The only two downsides of that, which was a big wake up call, at that time, uh, we had the hole in the ozone layer. Uh, which was a big thing back in the 70s and 80s, which has nearly fixed itself here in 2024.

And also the big whaling industry, which decimated the whole of Antarctica. Which, uh, after finishing in 1962 and the Antarctic Treaty was there, all the whales are now coming back to their original numbers. So, I saw a beautiful continent. I saw two, uh, bad things, which were obviously man made. And they can fix themselves.

So I always believed that there is a fix. There is a solution to anything that we’ve done on this planet. 

Rodney Payne: I love that optimism. Can you bridge the gap for me on how a Royal, Royal Navy, uh, employee from the UK made it from Antarctica to Grenada and, and what you ended up doing here? 

Phil Saye: Okay, there, there is a little small bit in between.

Uh, when I left the Royal Navy, uh, in 1989, I then went into an engineering job in the UK looking after automated warehouses and you may say, well, what’s that got to do with the environment? And how does that fit into your profile? Well while I was the engineering manager there, I’m always looking for solutions. And during that time I also took on facilities management, which meant energy saving water consumption, everything. But a lot of warehouses in the UK have a lot of land with them. A lot of this land is monoculture, grass fields behind them, cut, cut, cut, everything. So what we started to look at was, uh, how can we make these nature reserves. At no cost, nearly. And in fact, it was a less cost because we didn’t actually mow the lawn. So we left a lot just growing wild. We put in hedgehog boxes, we put in bird boxes, we put in environmental ponds. And many, many things like this. 

And what I did, this was a big turning moment for me. for children’s education is I try to educate the, how can I say, the more mature people in the warehousing environment, the workforce. And sometimes it was a bit difficult and certainly had challenges. So I went back into the community in the area and, uh, took on a few schools, taught them about energy saving, recycling, what we should be and what we shouldn’t be doing, uh, as to sort of give our planet a better chance. 

Six months later, a guy stopped me in the warehouses.

“Phil. I need a word with you,” and I went, “Yeah? What, what’s wrong?” He said, “My God, ever since you went into my daughter’s school, I have to turn the lights off, I have to turn the taps off, I have to recycle plastics, I have to recycle paper, I can’t do this, I can’t do this.” 

So that was really, uh, a lightbulb moment for me, literally, uh, and figuratively, because suddenly I realized, children are magnificent educators, because people are embarrassed to argue with them. If they ask you to do something, or if they see you dropping trash, or they see you leaving lights on, or they see you leaving your air conditioner on with the doors open, and they tell you you shouldn’t be doing that, hey, that’s a wake up call. 

Rodney Payne: A common theme in a lot of the interviews we’ve done in the last few years has been around the role of parents, and what our role is as good ancestors, so since we’re talking about schooling, and the opportunity for education, what do you think it means to be a good ancestor? 

Phil Saye: Uh, that you leave some kind of legacy. Don’t start something that completely relies on you. Yeah. Do something that involves community, involves other people. Uh, and I know these words are used quite commonly, legacy, sustainability. How I look at it is give you an example. When I sold dive Grenada, a whole part of the deal was, is that I sold the intellectual property and the ownership of the Grenada Artificial Reef Project, so it has legacy.

So it means, as and when I kick off my mortal coil and I disappear, yeah, that project carries on. I see the project of the Artificial Reef Project still there in 40, 50 years time, so it will outlast the present owners. But the whole point is, don’t have these little projects, they look very sexy, they look very glamorous, but actually when you dig beneath the surface, yeah, they’re not.

Actually, it’s got a six month longevity, there’s no efficacy. You should dig a bit deeper. When you see projects out there in the world and they look all fancy and they all look good, dig deep. Keep asking the question why, why, why, and then you’ll get to a point when somebody can’t answer your question, and then you’ll really see, uh, if you like, uh, what’s really behind it.

Rodney Payne: What was the need for the artificial reef project here in Grenada? 

Phil Saye: The need for it was, I, I saw the writing on the wall many, many years ago that with, uh, the increase in ocean temperatures, uh, overfishing, the anchoring, the runoff from, uh, three areas of runoff here in Grenada. 

One, construction. Two, farming.That’s both, uh, livestock and arable, yeah, and also the sewage outlets. Untreated sewage gets pumped out to sea. So we’re slowly, slowly killing our environment. So we are making strides into helping the farmers understand that they can’t just dump all their water in the river systems. We are talking to the sewage companies to make sure that their outlets go further out to sea.

Uh, but we still need to get on top of the overfishing. Now the big one obviously is global warming and coral bleaching. And I think this year we’re going to head for the biggest coral bleaching event in the Caribbean and the world ever. Yeah, it’s already happening in India, in Africa, in the Maldives, you know, Australia’s been hit badly again.

So it’s going to happen again. So what we have to do is put in solutions. Yeah. You’ll see around the world that you’ll see these little coral nurseries planting them out. Look deeper. That’s, they’re really planting out monocultures, but there’s no efficacy. They’re just planting certain coral types in areas that they weren’t growing, but nobody’s following up.

Is this really efficient to do that? So I turned it on its head and said, I need to have a project where we have a base where we actually just put these pyramids in the water, the artificial reef modules and allow nature to populate it. So therefore corals and other marine life love new substrate, love new surfaces.

They don’t like old decrepit reefs, because they have algae growing on them and it smells and it doesn’t encourage the corals to stop and populate on there. So we need something new to be able to go on there, populate onto there. And this was an experiment. You know, I, I, when I asked the government for permission to do this project, I said, I think this will work, but you’re going to just, and I said, if it doesn’t work, I am taking full responsibility for removing all those pyramids out of the water.

And, but within six months, I was blown away. Within two years, corals were growing. Uh, we have over 30 species of fish. So, you know, it’s working beyond my wildest dreams. And the good thing about the artificial reef pyramids that we use, these could be scaled anywhere in the world because we’re using basic construction blocks to build them.

You don’t need special tools. You don’t need any special skills. Yeah. Uh, that’s easily transferable to anybody. 

Rodney Payne: It’s easy to get overwhelmed by the magnitude of the environmental and climate crisis and wonder whether there’s anything that we can do as humans. But something you’ve touched on a couple of times so far is, Our ability to give a little helping hand sort of combined with the need for us to get out of nature’s way. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Phil Saye: Uh, yeah, it is overwhelming. And I, and I think like any problems in your life, yeah. Uh, if you were suddenly diagnosed with a, uh, an incurable disease, you’re absolutely down and all the rest of that. We have to do the best we can with the cards we’re being dealt and the cards we’re being dealt at the moment with – there’s no unity around the world.

So we know. That the, uh, world’s oceans are going to increase in temperature. Yep, they’re not going to go down in our lifetime. If we actually do get on top of it, it will probably be between 50 and 100 years time before we actually see it. By that time, all majority of corals will be dead. However, I take inspiration in a small way from my artificial reef pyramids.

And I know I keep going back to those. What’s happened? We had about a 20 percent bleaching event here last year. So on all the typical reefs, which are 15 to 20 meters deep, had lots of coral bleaching. However, on my artificial reef pyramids, only 3 meters deep, we had very, very little. So, uh, we can take empirically from that, and we’re about to prove it by science, that what’s happened with the pyramids, they are already, because of their shallow depth, Are in warm water for most of their time.

They’re also exposed to high UV radiation. So therefore, we’re actually doing darwinism on here because only survival of the fittest. So the ones with the strongest DNA are actually attaching to the pyramids. Anything with a weaker DNA is already being cycled out of the system and they will die when they actually recruit onto the pyramids.

So our next phase is that as the corals grow up and mature, we will then fragment them as the harder DNA and then they are the ones to transplant out, which will hopefully be able to cope with the higher water temperatures. 

Rodney Payne: Yeah, that’s, that’s fascinating to be thinking about the survival rate in shallower water actually being, uh, the, the key there because they’ve been hardened.

Can you tell me about some of the other projects and maybe the, mangrove, mangroves restoration? 

Phil Saye: Yeah, so, uh, mangroves are a very important key species in, uh, anywhere in the world, wherever you are. And what happened here in Grenada, we had a huge Category 4 hurricane in 2004, uh, which wiped out huge swathes of our mangroves and they became like a bomb site.

And unfortunately, they became a dumping site for everything. So, in 2009, we decided that we needed to turn the clock back and get them replanted. So, we cleared the site of all the, uh, rubble, rubbish, and everything that had been dumped there. We prepared the site. We got expert knowledge from around the world to help us in the early days to understand what is the, uh, best way you can with replanting mangroves, and we were told that – use your home stock Don’t import them.

Make sure it’s all something that is sort of native to Grenada. We looked at what the species were there before, which was predominantly red and white mangrove. We had a few setbacks. Yeah, because since the hurricane the crabs had taken over the whole ecosystem. They decided, oh my god, these new, uh, mangrove plants that you’ve just put in here are the most wonderful thing in the world.

And overnight, the 300 plants disappeared. So we realized that we had to do it – so we put them on raised beds, and that worked. And now the whole ecosystem, the trees in 15 years, are 30 to 40 feet high. We have just opened up an interpretation center. So, what we tried to do, it’s not just the trees.

Give ourselves a pat on the back saying, Hey, look at us. We’ve, uh, we’ve regenerated, uh, uh, the ecosystem for the mangroves. What we’ve done is we’ve included the community. So they have a buy-in. So they have a sort of a protection factor of it, but we’ve taken that one part further. So now coming into the tourism sector, we are now, we’ve built interpretation center.

We’re building a boardwalk into the mangrove ecosystem. So people can get up close and personal with all the wildlife and that in there. But we are going, as a Grenada Fund for Conservation, we are now going to educate 12 people at the Technical College. They will go through, uh, their training this year.

We will then train them in the technical side, which is understanding all the wildlife and the ecosystem, so they can then go on to be field guides and earn a livelihood from that. So, it’s the holistic approach. So, yes, we have to get the thing working again. It’s a bit like the artificial reef. You can’t just do that. It’s about the whole education program all the way along. And then we get a sustainable tourism product and then you will attract more people to Grenada because they see that we’re doing something for ourselves and that they can come and see the true beauty of a mangrove ecosystem there at the shore.

And the reasons why they’re so important, they’re a place where many, many different fish and reptiles go and lay their eggs. It’s a nursery. The ecosystem, it, it filters out all the crap that flows off from the land. Uh, it helps with beach erosion and land erosion, but it also reclaims land because of the, uh, the tap roots that are stuck out.

It actually traps, uh, all the silt. So you actually can grow an island by a mangrove system. 

Rodney Payne: And they’re a terrific carbon sink as well. When you go back and visit some of these projects that have been underway for, you know, 5 or 10 years, can you describe how you feel? 

Phil Saye: It’s a magical feeling, actually.

It’s to know that you’ve been a part of a community, a team, and to know that everything is successful. I see so many projects around the world that are very warm and fluffy, but have no depth. And if you actually dug into it deeply, it’s not that effective on doing anything. What we’ve done here in Grenada has been the complete opposite.

It’s been, the efficacy of these projects has been great and it’s such a warm feeling. I go down to the mangroves now and I go probably two or three times a week and I just sit there either with me, myself or my wife and we just sit there and just take in the serenity that this has come back. 

Rodney Payne: Yeah, it’s amazing.

And the, the film that you showed me from your kayak, uh, the other morning, it really is quite special to see the before and after and, and what, what we can actually do. Talk to me about how you see tourism playing into the work you’re doing and the different ways that tourism intersects. So we’re obviously sitting here on a, you know, beautiful beach in Grenada and tourism is a huge part of the economy here.

It’s, it’s really such a big connection to the world. The environment is such a huge draw card for people to come here. Uh, but there’s lots of different ways it intersects. can you talk a little bit about how you work within tourism, how the environment benefits tourism, uh, how the tourism board works with you or supports your work?

Phil Saye: Okay, yeah. I, I, I think it’s completely intertwined. And I think in years gone by, in many, in many workplaces, not just tourism, everybody works in their own little silo. Let’s get the job done. Yeah, let’s get that marketing. Let’s do that press release. Let’s do this. And we’re all very busy people, but I think the the silos are being taken down, and I see the integration between tourism, the environment, conservation is a big thing going forward because people who are traveling now are becoming more savvy. I know when I travel, I want to go something that, uh, I feel better about when I travel.

So if I’m traveling, I do a lot of, uh, national parks, uh, in the US and in Canada. I love them. They’re big, wild, open and that, but I want to feel a part of, it’s, it’s making the world a better place rather than the days have gone – the sun, sea, and sand. Of course there’ll be people just travel for a bit of sunshine, lay on a beach and nothing else.

But a lot more people are wanting to get out there in the natural world and see what’s happening. And I see tourism, uh, like with the artificial reef project, the CEO said to me, Oh my God, Phil, there’s no way we’re not supporting you. You know, that was a whole different game changer. You know, before I nearly had to kick the door down to even mention it, let alone get funding as well as advocacy from the tourism authority.

So we all work hand-in-hand. So. You can see that from the mangrove projects, we’re now going to bring tourists to the mangroves. They’re going to appreciate that. That’s suddenly going to be on the reception of somebody’s hotel now. And so all suddenly, I think in 10, 15 years, the environment will be tourism and, and you will never separate the two again, where at the moment, if you like, the silos are coming down.

The, the sort of wings are spreading a bit into each other’s camp, and the same as with the, uh, tourism authority at the moment. They see this biggest importance of the marine protected areas here in Grenada. It doesn’t even fall in their wheelhouse to fund, but our chairman, Mr. Randy Dolan, has said we can’t let this go.

And because we’re an authority and not a ministry, we can do things much quicker than the fisheries division. Fisheries division are still operationally responsible for it, but we’re actually funding, uh, the operational side of marine protected area patrols. So again, our chairman and our CEO are forward thinkers and realizing that that has a real importance going forward.

You know, so many times in my life, I’ve said, Oh, it’s not, it’s not my problem. They don’t belong to me. where our new leaders, our younger leaders are actually saying, Hey, it’s all our problem. Yeah, this is Grenada. So we all have a vested interest under that. So I feel very, very encouraged with the leadership we’ve got in The tourism authority and also the other people willing to listen.

Rodney Payne: I love the concept of breaking down silos between tourism and the environment. I think that’s a really powerful thing to be thinking about. You mentioned leadership and having strong leaders. That’s a topic that comes up a lot in different parts of the world. How do you see leadership in the moment we’re in?

Phil Saye: Oh, leadership to me is really, uh, about inspiring. And so many people put leadership stroke manager. In the same sentence and they are like poles apart as far as I’m concerned, uh, a manager is like a manager who manages a process, you know, you, you go in, you do your job, you make sure it’s done and all the rest of it, where a leadership, it’s all about that inspirational quality, taking people forward with you.

So you’re picking up everybody along the way. So in fact, I was just saying to the chairman yesterday, I need to see the prime minister. I need to have him in my bow wave. Yeah, as well as that last child in a very poor community in Woburn. There’s no difference. These are all people of Grenada. And remember those people in the community are our future leaders or our future marine biologists or our future environmentalists, whatever they are.

Yeah, we don’t know that yet. Yeah, so we have to bring them all. I, I used to call that one of my things was it like a big yard brush. Yeah, you’re not sweeping little bits here and here and oh, there’s a bit over there. I’ve got my big yard brush and everybody’s coming together. To me, that’s the leadership.

It’s all about bringing everybody together and listening. Listen to the things. You can’t know everything in this world. Yeah, take something from somebody else. 

Rodney Payne: Taking everybody with you is a a monumentous task in some cases because people are at very different spectrums in their own journey of understanding around our connection to the environment.

And we have so many different sort of forms of resistance to change as humans, right? It’s, we have lots of bias, different levels of education and understanding. For me, a massive, Part of the challenge in front of us is to help more quickly accelerate people’s valuing of the environment. How do you think we can do that?

How do we help people to, to value the environment that we live in? 

Phil Saye: To me, because there’s so much political stuff out there, we really need to have to put that in a box somewhere. And we need to involve people. Uh, this is a term I don’t necessarily like, but I use. It’s to pick the low hanging fruit, to show them that this can make a difference.

Because, like me, I hear so many stories about, uh, this country’s doing X or that country’s doing Y. Are we being told the whole truth? We’re all, uh, I mean, a classic example which I have pushed back against, and I don’t have all the facts yet, one day I will try and get them, is electric cars. Yeah, up front on the glossy front of the magazine.

Oh my god, that’s fantastic. No more, uh, you know carbon going in the atmosphere. What’s gone into making that battery now? I see different excerpts about uh, when they’re mining for lithium and all the other rare mineral earth Earth minerals going into that that the amount of uh, co2 that’s going in the atmosphere from the big trucks that are doing the mining, yeah, makes it a joke. 

So that’s something I want to get to but it takes a lot of research to get there and I don’t know the answers. So i’ve got good friends who say, “Oh my god, Phil, you’re not an electric car yet.” And i’m going no because I said I’m, I’m a bit on the fence about, you know, if I looked at the whole life cycle of a lithium car battery, it’s to me, on the surface what i’m looking at it’s not good.

So what I think we need to deal with is try and pick your battles. Try and be selective, because if not, what was going to happen is you’re just going to swamp everybody. You’re just going to swamp your local audience. So let’s deal with what we’ve got here. Let’s think about how we inspire our future leaders because it’s only quite recently, you know, let’s say in the last sort of 20 years that we’re actually really talking about the subject in the first place.

So to me, let’s stay local. Let’s talk about it. Let’s do our research and make sure that the battles that we’re going to take on are winnable. 

Rodney Payne: Some really good advice in there. You mentioned coral bleaching from, from warmer waters and we’re seeing really accelerated impacts of the heat that we’ve put into the earth system.

One of the things that sent me on this journey of wanting to come and talk to people like you is the day that I realized how bad getting on an airplane was compared to all of the things I could be doing in my life to live more sustainably. When you get on an airplane, if you, if you still do, uh, how do you, how do you think about that and how do you reconcile that with all the work you’re doing?

Phil Saye: Actually, I don’t, uh, and I’m going to be honest, is that, you know, I said about picking your battles is that air travel is just going to get bigger, because people want to travel, people want to change, and they need to be able to get to places to have experiences or spend their money. And that’s the world we live in.

So I’m not saying it’s good. So what do I do? Never travel again and just sit on my little island. Yeah, never go and see my family. Never get experiences in my short life? So what I take encouragement from is that the airlines know how much they’re sticking into the environment and also all the other things around the world, you know, and we have to sort of look at that, that that is a part of life at the moment, you know, and hopefully that the, there’ll be enough pressure in a few years time that we’ll get to some kind of, uh, we’ll never get carbon neutral, but we’ll get some kind of eco fuel that will actually be better than anything else.

So it is tough. And it’s a bit like in our everyday lives you could say well, let’s get rid of the plastic in our lives. You try, you sit in a car. Yeah, you buy anything. It’s surrounded by plastic. It’s packaged in plastic. It’s got plastic in it, you know, you look around your house you try and get rid of that plastic. You just can’t do it.

It’s an impossible task. So to me, uh, the plastic thing needs resolving, it’ll never go away, but I think if we set the bench, a bit like when, uh, was it Kennedy who said we’re gonna go to the moon? Yeah, didn’t have a clue how, gave them a very few years, 5 or 10 years, something like that, we have a man on the moon, yeah.

I think if we set those kind of things that said, in 10 years time, let’s get rid of at least plastic bottles. That’s where I see our biggest problem is now. Nearly everywhere, like in Grenada, within a year we got rid of plastic carrier bags. So we can do things like that. 

Rodney Payne: Do you think there’s a way that we can leverage the massive influence of travel, in the knowledge of the negative impact? To make that such an impactful lever for transformation of the other parts of our world, you know, people coming to see mangroves, people coming to, uh, see what you’ve, what you’ve managed to do here and maybe take that home, that travel and the ability to go and learn and actually see and experience things could be the catalyst for the, the widespread moonshot that you’re describing?

Phil Saye: I have an idea and I, uh, unfortunately I haven’t got to high enough levels yet. I think that we have sort of aviation taxes each country has and they’re all different in some respect. I think a big thing for a small island like Grenada, I don’t know what the average airfare is, but let’s say it’s a thousand US dollars.

So why don’t we put a 10 dollar conservation environmental tax on that? So if you’re spending 1,000 on a flight, it doesn’t mean much to the traveller, but it means a lot to a small country like us. That it doesn’t go into some bottomless pit of the, what we here in Grenada call the consolidated fund. It actually goes to projects.

But, here’s the kicker. We market it. You actually feel good. And you we make a thing on your ticket or somewhere that you’re actually contributing to these following projects there is a link or a somewhere that you can quickly go to to see where that money’s being spread. And we make a big thing on, oh, there’s an environmental tax to go there.

Oh, it’s only ten dollars. Hey, I’m not even gonna notice, I’m gonna, that’s two beers. Yeah, uh, however, here’s a link to what it does. So you’ve got the Artificial Reef Project. It’s a marine protected areas, it’s, uh, some school projects. It’s the mangrove restoration. It’s this, it’s that, it’s the turtle preservation or something like that.

And you’re going, Hey, I like that country already. I’m paying just an extra 10 yet to go there, but this is what they’re doing with my money. And now actually that’s going to encourage me to go to Grenada against St. Lucia or St. Vincent who don’t have that. Yeah. So I think there is a way of raising revenue to help our projects.

And we can sell it, even though it’s a tax, as long as it’s managed correctly by the right people. I think that’s a great way of actually allowing our visitors to feel better about their carbon footprint of flying here. 

Rodney Payne: It’s a perfect note to end on. Thank you for sitting down with me today. It was a terrific conversation.

Phil Saye: Right. No, thank you for having me.

David Archer: This has been Travel Beyond presented by Destination Think. You just heard from Phil Saye and Rodney Payne speaking from Grenada. We’ll include links to more resources on the blog for this episode at Destination Think. com. My co producer is Sara Raymond de Booy. This episode has been produced and has theme music composed by me, David Archer.

Lindsay Payne provided production support. You can help more people find this show by subscribing, and by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 

Do you have a good example to share? We’re looking for the best examples of solutions that regenerate economies, communities, and ecosystems.

You can reach me at david at destinationthink dot com, or find Destination Think on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time.

Images provided by Phil Saye.