Changing minds through meaningful tourism at the Danish Architecture Center

woman sitting in a chair
Jamie Sterling

28 May 2024

“I think a lot of people coming from outside can learn something from Copenhagen, especially when it comes to democracy, sustainability, and careful urban development.” — Dorthe Barsøe

While Denmark’s leadership in design and sustainability is well known in architecture circles, its creative minds also impact international visitors through meaningful tourism experiences in the nation’s capital.

The Danish Architecture Center (DAC) in Copenhagen is a prime example. The organization’s Director, Dorthe Barsøe, sees the Center as a catalyst for promoting sustainable urban development through various exhibitions, tours, and events. She wants to do more than present Denmark’s famous design culture; she wants to provoke discussion and inspire solutions that travellers can take home. 

Dorthe is in good company. Copenhagen recently earned the title of World Capital of Architecture from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), which acknowledges the city’s urban design for shaping sustainable development. Located in the BLOX complex in Copenhagen’s revitalized harbour, DAC is at the centre of a national and international gathering place that nurtures engagement in architecture, design and sustainable cities.

Throughout this season of Travel Beyond, we’ve learned how Copenhagen’s reputation for sustainability is championed by its entrepreneurs and magnified by its destination management organization (DMO). Now, Dorthe emphasizes how travel and tourism have the power to show people new ideas and different ways of living. 

“If we here in the Danish Architecture Center just could give input, maybe change somebody’s opinion, maybe give somebody good ideas, bringing back to where they come from, I think it’s meaningful tourism.” — Dorthe Barsøe

This episode, you’ll also learn:

  • About the role of the Danish Architecture Center in Copenhagen’s landscape of meaningful tourism.
  • How Copenhagen’s inclusive approach to urban development differs from the “money talks” method often encountered elsewhere.
  • How to engage different audiences in complex topics.
  • How tourism plays an important role in spreading ideas and knowledge.



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Show notes

BLOX – a multifunctional building located on the central harbourfront of Copenhagen that engages people in architecture, design and sustainable urban development.

Danish Architecture Center – the meeting place for architecture, design and urban culture in Denmark offering exhibitions, tours, and events.

UNESCO – the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) is a specialized agency of the United Nations that contributes to peace and security by promoting international cooperation in education, sciences, culture, communication and information.

Episode transcript

Dorthe Barsøe: I think a lot of people from outside can learn something from Copenhagen, especially when it comes to democracy, sustainability, careful urban development. If we here in Danish Architecture Center just could give input, maybe change somebody’s opinion, maybe give somebody good ideas, bringing back to where they come from.

I think it’s, it’s meaningful tourism.

David Archer: Hello and welcome to Travel Beyond. I’m David Archer, Editorial Manager at Destination Think, recording from the coastal village of Daajing Giids, British Columbia in Haida Gwaii, the territory of the Haida Nation. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: And I’m Sara Raymond de Booy, Associate Creative Director at Destination Think. I’m recording from Seattle, Washington on Coast Salish land, specifically that of the Duwamish, Suquamish, Stiligwamish, and Muckleshoot people.

David Archer: On this show, we partner with leading destinations to bring you inspiring solutions to the greatest challenges facing communities and the planet. And we talk to the changemakers who are addressing regenerative travel through action, and often from the bottom up. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: We’re actively looking for the best examples of efforts to regenerate economies, communities, and ecosystems.

So be sure to reach out if you have a story to share with us. 

David Archer: So the next stop on our tour of Copenhagen takes us to the Danish Architecture Center where Rodney and team met with Dorthe Barsøe, the center’s director. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: So David, what are your impressions on Danish architecture? 

David Archer: I guess I’m the kind of person who gets easily dazzled by sleek and minimalist Scandinavian style designs.

It’s just a look that I like. But, um, before our episode, episode number three of this season with Anders Lendager, I couldn’t tell you much about Danish architecture specifically. I do know through some research on other projects that the city of Aarhus, Denmark is known for design and culture. And I also found out recently that Copenhagen was named the world capital of architecture in 2023 by UNESCO.

And the previous capital was the first ever named by UNESCO and that was Rio de Janeiro. And so I was learning a little bit about what that means. And UNESCO is recognizing Rio’s achievements in urban planning related to the pandemic. And it was saying that Copenhagen will build on those achievements by, quote, continuing to show the way in which architecture and culture can respond to the challenges of our time, especially in the environmental field.

So that’s why – that’s what got them the title this time 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Ah, and what is it about architecture that you typically admire whether you’re encountering it in your travels or at home? 

David Archer: Yeah, I guess there’s two categories for me. One is aesthetics and creativity, or how thoughtful design can make places more beautiful or inviting.

And honestly, I kind of admire anything that goes beyond the big box stores that are so common in North America. And what also stands out to me, aesthetic-wise, is structures that are in some way embedded into the landscape, or that reflect the place’s character. I’m thinking about one really neat example that I’ve been to.

That’s the opera house in Oslo, which is built to look like a giant iceberg that landed on the shore. And you can actually walk up the sloping sides of the building to get a nice view of the harbour and the city. So it’s things like that, that I, that I really appreciate. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: I think I’m always appreciative when a new building complements or tries to blend in with the thing it replaced, kind of replaced, kind of to match the heritage and personality of a place.

If you’re in a historic area and all of a sudden there’s something that just. It’s quite jarring. It doesn’t quite fit in and kind of upsets the character, I would say. So I really like when, when things, new things are built, but really match that, that personality that already was there. And I’d say I’m similar, similarly to you, you know, typically where I’ve lived and really before digging into this topic, I’ve, I’ve always been a bit pessimistic about any new development.

I, Just assume it’s going to be like what you mentioned, like the big boxes, um, and a lot of the, a lot of the houses around here, you know, where you’re just trying to get them, get them done quickly. It’s just kind of a soulless box with like 18 different materials on the side and the building permit probably didn’t allow for parking, but there’s no public transport and somehow it got approved, you know, things like that.

David Archer: Yeah. It’s like, how did this happen? 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Yeah. 

David Archer: Yeah. It’s good for, to build for more density. I mean, we sure need it when it comes to housing, but. Yeah, the infrastructure has to be there to support it or it’ll be a nightmare. And that’s kind of where architecture, to me, like, it suddenly becomes more about the urban planning of a city and its impact on what it’s like to live there.

And so another aspect of architecture I’m starting to admire more and learn about is universal design. So, This year, I’m chairing the Haida Gwaii Accessibility Committee, and that’s a new group that’s gathering ideas and input to shape an accessibility plan for this district of British Columbia. So I’m trying to learn as much as I can about this.

And when you say accessibility, I think a lot of people often think about the ramps that allow wheelchair access, for example. And those are important and quite visible examples, but there are so many ways to use urban design and architecture to make the built environment more accessible for everyone, no matter their age, size, or ability, or disability.

You know, it’s things as simple as adding park benches for people who need to stop and rest, right? Or accessible public washrooms, or providing braille on signage, or even designing areas where there is less sensory stimulation to make that place easier on people who are neurodivergent. And this has a lot of crossover with tourism, of course, and, you know, it might mean rethinking certain experiences to be, to become more inclusive. Like here, we’ve had a couple of trails have boardwalks built on them, uh, to help more people access them, which has been nice to see. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Yeah. And architecture when done well can definitely help to build a more inclusive world.

And as I mentioned before, today’s interview is with Dorthe, the Director of the Danish Architecture Center, and you would, you know, the center is not just about celebrating buildings, um, but it goes way beyond that. It’s intended to be a place that brings everyday people like us in on discussions related to urban planning and future development.

It also educates and experiments in sustainable design and living and works to communicate what architecture and development in Denmark can teach the world. So, the Danish Architecture Center is located in a complex called Blox, right on a refurbished part of the harbour. Blox is home to the Danish Architecture Center, but is also much more than that.

It has spaces that are used as offices, there’s exhibition spaces, fitness areas, cafes, apartments, playgrounds. It’s everything you can imagine, basically. 

David Archer: It looks like you can swim right beside Blox, too. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Yes, I have seen that. Just, all the times, all the times I could’ve swam in the harbour but missed out, David.

David Archer: Yeah. Well, it seems like Blox ties together a lot of modern design ideas. And provides a good example of sustainable urban living with a connection to tourism. You know, the space is open for people to visit and links back to that idea that travel is an important way to show people different ways of living and making good choices at home.

And it, you know, it doesn’t hurt that Blox is pretty nice to look at too. 

Sara Raymond de Booy: Absolutely. So let’s learn more about it from someone who knows far more about architecture and the Danish Architecture Center than we do, Dorthe Barsøe.

Rodney Payne: Could you tell me your name and what you do? 

Dorthe Barsøe: I’m Dorthe Barsøe. I’m the director and COO of Danish Architecture Centre here in Copenhagen. 

Rodney Payne: You have had a long career in tourism. Could you tell me about what you used to do? A little bit about the business and how many, how many visitors you used to welcome each year?

Dorthe Barsøe: I actually have a marketing background. So I used to work for marketing agencies for many years. I also worked for a brewery, actually. But, um, I think the thing you are asking for is my career in, in the Tivoli Gardens. I was there for 13 years, uh, as a VP, marketing first, and later on VP brand and communications.

And with that job followed, um, other kinds of jobs, like I was, um, nine years in the, um, in the board of VistDenmark. I’ve been working closely with Wonderful Copenhagen. I’ve been in the board of Cruise Copenhagen Network. Yeah, I’ve been in the board of different museums. Um, also in the board of Bokustore Denmark, which is actually, you might know Bokustore.

That’s about, um, chefs, the best chef in the world. And I’ve been working with the Danish organization. Because Denmark is also famous within food, you might know that. 

Rodney Payne: We have heard that. The Tivoli Gardens, could you tell me a little bit about what that is, and is it very popular? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Tivoli Garden is, I think the category is called an amusement park, but it’s a little bit more than that because it’s, they have the rides, but they also are famous for the garden, which is very pretty.

It’s famous for food, and it’s famous for all kinds of music. Two concert halls, outdoor stages, with all kinds of concerts from, um, classical to rock music. They have their own ballet. They have a youth guard. Um, the garden is old. It’s 180 years old and it’s, uh, the, uh, it’s number one destination, uh, in Denmark.

They have like 4.6 million, uh, guests per year. Um, a lot of tourists, of course. I think nowadays it’s about 35 percent is tourist. The rest are actually Danes. 

Rodney Payne: I was lucky enough to go, I’ve been once already on my trip. I think I’m going back again next week because I have a little 5 year old at home who won’t want to leave without going back one more time.

Why would anybody leave that job? Being the brand leader for something so special that hosts so many visitors. Why would you leave that job? 

Dorthe Barsøe: I was there for 13 years, so you might say, been there, done that. But I mean, the work here in Danish Architecture Centre, it, it really make a lot of sense, uh, when it comes to talking about, uh, Denmark, how to develop the society, all about sustainable urban development and stuff like that.

And I really, I really felt that my, my, my heart beats for that. 

Rodney Payne: Can you tell me a little bit about the Danish Architecture Centre and what it is you do, and a little bit about the building that we’re in? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Yeah. We’re in a building called Blox, the big greenhouse, um, that actually contains a lot of things.

Uh, that is, um, um, a hub where smaller, quite many startups. They can have, um, an office space. They can rent office space. That’s part of it. We have an organization called Creative Denmark. They welcome all kinds of delegations who wants to come to Denmark and hear about Uh, industries like architecture, design, fashion, gaming, actually, uh, they welcome professional groups.

There’s another organization called, uh, Danish Design Center. They, they, um, advise company in designing processes. And then we, Danish Architecture Center, we are here in the middle of the house. We do things with the professionals, uh, in the industry. But we also welcome just what I call normal people.

Invite them in and make exhibitions. Try to help normal people to understand and be interested in architecture, urban development, design. 

Rodney Payne: Why is it important for people to learn about those things? And what do you think they can learn here? 

Dorthe Barsøe: The thing is, I often say if you take, we, we actually call, call architecture, it, it’s art.

For us, we see it as art. If you, for instance, look at ballet and say, okay, I don’t like ballet, you can just refuse to go and see ballet. I mean, architecture and urban development surround you, whether you want it or not. It’s there. Therefore, it’s interesting that people, also children from the beginning are interested in it and want to talk about it, hear about it, and in the Danish model, play a role, put your influence on what’s going on in urban development, because that’s actually possible in Denmark.

Rodney Payne: Are there particularly unique things going on in Copenhagen and Denmark? 

Dorthe Barsøe: And one, one unique thing this year is that, that Copenhagen is actually a world capital of architecture, which is a title that UNESCO gave to Denmark. It comes with a huge, a conference that was in, um, Bellasanta Copenhagen this July, but the whole year is world capital of architecture.

So this year, um, Copenhagen is very much branded. It’s architecture all over the world. We have had an amazing amount of, of articles and interviews, et cetera, uh, all over the world. So it’s, it’s Copenhagen is these years branded very much around architecture and design. 

Rodney Payne: Do you think it’s possible for people to come to a place like Copenhagen to learn and, and take ideas home?

Dorthe Barsøe: That’s actually one of the things when you ask me whether. why my job, I feel it’s important and so on. I actually think that what we do here is that we give, we can call them tourists. I prefer to call them guests. We give them something they can take home, at least something to think about, or maybe something to go home and do differently.

Go home and maybe challenge your own systems. 

Rodney Payne: Do you think being able to come and see and touch and experience different things and different ideas and different ways of living, is it, is it powerful? 

Dorthe Barsøe: I really think so, and the way we make our exhibitions is, for instance, we have something we call conversation starters.

So what you see in our exhibitions, it’s not only telling that something about a year, a special building, a, what I call, hall of fame. It’s also bringing issues to discuss. And we do not necessarily give all the answers. Thanks. But we make this conversation starters and invite people to talk and to discuss.

And maybe we then show some examples. The exhibition we have right now, Copenhagen in Common, shows a lot of nice examples, but it also shows examples of things that could have been done better. It’s important for us that it’s not, that we’re not only showing like wonderful Copenhagen, the glittery pictures and so on.

We also want to say everything is not perfect, things could be done differently, and we want people to discuss with each other or think about what they see and learn. 

Rodney Payne: What do you think that the world can learn from Copenhagen? 

Dorthe Barsøe: If you see us as a tourist destination, we often say we don’t have an Eiffel Tower.

You can say, oh, that’s a shame, but maybe it’s actually an advantage, because then you need to have something else. And I think a change the last maybe five or ten years where I’ve been in the industry is that, that of course some people want to see The Little Mermaid and people want to go to Tivoli, and that’s fine.

But there’s also a huge interest in the way we live in Denmark, about our democracy, about the way we, in a democratic way, make urban development. I mean, we are in a country where it’s not like money talks. I don’t mention specific other places, but you and I know that there are places on earth where when it comes to urban development, it is money talks.

It’s not here. 

Rodney Payne: That’s very apparent to me, having had a chance to come and spend time here, that there’s a different relationship to money in urban development, this part of the world where values are different. When you think about Copenhagen and Denmark and, you know, even Scandinavia, how do you think about values compared to other parts of the world?

Dorthe Barsøe: I travel a lot in the, in the, in the U.S. for several reasons, and there is a huge difference. And you can see actually how cities in the U.S. develop. The fact that, you have empty cities in the weekends because you’ve got all the industry and all the business in the center. It’s different here.

We talk a lot about livability and a picture on that is, for instance, that if you go out in Copenhagen, that can be on, on a normal morning. It could be in the weekends or so. Here’s a lot of families. A lot of families decide that to stay in town even, couples get kids in many cities that would move out. We try to develop a city where, where families want to stay, so you have the diversity.

Of course we have the same problem as other big cities, like it’s, it’s expensive to live in the center of Copenhagen. And we have a huge discussion about everybody cannot afford to live in the center, but we are having the discussion. You And we have places like Christiania, you might have heard of Christiania.

And that’s, that’s really a place showing diversity, it’s, it’s different from everything else. Um, we develop new ways of living, trying, I don’t say that we succeeded, but trying to, to, to make sure we have the diversity in the cities. So it’s not only rich people who can stay in Copenhagen. 

Rodney Payne: Do you see yourself and this place as a tourism attraction?

Do you think of this as a place for tourists to come to? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Danish Architecture Centre? Absolutely. That’s part of our strategy. That we want to share this knowledge with others, and we get money from the Danish estate, so we have to talk about Danish architecture in a wider perspective than just to Danes.

Rodney Payne: And how do you help tourists to learn about, you know, Danish architecture and sustainable development? What are the different ways that you, that you help tourists? 

Dorthe Barsøe: We have the exhibitions. We have, we actually have an app making tours. You can make tours on your own, uh, using that app.

We have, um, guided tours in town. We’ve got guided tours on boats. Yeah, we have a small book where you can, can do the tours. You can follow a tour in that book. So, you can start in Danish Architecture Centre, get the introduction, and then go out in, in town and experience, either yourself or with our tour guide.

Rodney Payne: It’s almost like a springboard or a jumping off point to go and learn about the city. How you can live here. 

Dorthe Barsøe: Yeah. And the whole point is that the way we communicate in exhibitions with our guides, it’s on a level where you don’t need to know anything or you don’t need to have any, um, don’t need to know about architecture or urban development.

I mean, it’s so everybody can actually understand. That’s a very important part. 

Rodney Payne: What would Copenhagen be like without tourists, without visitors or guests? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Oh, we tried that during COVID. Ha, ha, ha. The thing is that we know that we wouldn’t have the museums we have, the restaurants, et cetera, et cetera. Like a lot of other cities in the world, we are dependent on tourists.

And, and I personally think it’s, it’s, it’s nice. It’s part of the town. It wouldn’t be the same without the, again, tourists, or I call them guests. 

Rodney Payne: And you, you live on a houseboat. Can you tell me a little bit about, um, what it’s like to live on a houseboat? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Yeah, yeah. I live on a houseboat on the island of Reifshaleøen.

That’s a brand new area of Copenhagen. Still pretty wild. That’s actually a good example. That’s one of the few areas left in Copenhagen that is not developed yet. If money talks, you would just have developed that quickly. Expensive apartments, fast, uh, how much can we earn on this and that? It’s going to be a long process.

And we listen, the, the municipality listen to everybody. Those who are going to develop the island are listening. There’s a lot of competitions about how shall we do this. But right now it’s, it’s in the process and right now it’s really wild. There’s a huge food market, there’s some concert areas, a lot of art and performing is going on out there, and then there’s some houseboats, and I’m the lucky one to own one of those, yeah, and that’s amazing.

Rodney Payne: And do you see a lot of visitors come, come past in your neighborhood? 

Dorthe Barsøe: That’s interesting, because I mentioned that, that the kind of tourists we have in Copenhagen this year are people very interested in architecture, urban development, and so on. And for that reason, that island, Revshalløen, is interesting for them.

So we have like two, actually two million people going out there. The funny thing is that, that we have, it’s actually electrical, a harbour bus, sailing out there, and this time of the year, it’s jam packed. every day and it’s just loading people out there who want to see that wild area, see that that development’s going on and that’s interesting because that’s a different kind of tourist than those who just want to go and see the little mermaid and take the picture.

Rodney Payne: As a resident, is it annoying to have so many people coming past and looking? Do you, do you like it? Do you, does it frustrate you? How does it make you feel? 

Dorthe Barsøe: It, it, it’s really, it really makes me happy and proud and it’s, it’s nice people. They are not, they are not pushy. It’s funny to talk to them. And we do talk to them.

And sometimes we invite people in. If they ask, how is it to live on a houseboat? I say, come and have a look. I like to meet people. And I, I mean, if you live in a place like that, if you decide to live in a place like that, I think you have to share. Share experience. Come and have a look. 

Rodney Payne: Yeah, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a good way to think about the connection between humans.

How do you think tourism can be a force for positive change? 

Dorthe Barsøe: I think that you can talk about meaningful tourism, a reason for travel. So if we here in Danish Architecture Centre just could. give input, maybe change somebody’s opinion, maybe give somebody good ideas, uh, bringing back to where they come from. I think it’s, it’s meaningful tourism. So, so that could be one answer to that. 

Rodney Payne: Do you think that’s happening? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Definitely. Especially these years, because I see tourists who are actually interested in, in learning something. And it, what makes me happy is a lot of these tourists, they, they bring their kids.

And I mean, it’s through the kids, um, I mean, we’re going to change the world. Um, when it comes to sustainability, et cetera, et cetera. And that is a lot of what we are communicating. Again, Our exhibitions are not hall of fame. Of course we use some of the Danish famous architects to describe projects, but what we are more into communicating is agendas.

And of course a lot of these agendas is about sustainability, yeah, the green development, etc. 

Rodney Payne: Do you feel proud to be from Copenhagen? 

Dorthe Barsøe: I actually do. I feel proud and I feel thankful. The thing is I moved from up north, uh, north of Copenhagen to my houseboat. And it feels a little bit like I, I live in the country.

I do not, because I got five minutes to the center of Copenhagen. And still, when I walk around in town, uh, I feel proud. It is a great city, even for one who, who lives here. 

Rodney Payne: Yeah, I definitely get the sense that there’s a great deal of pride. 

Dorthe Barsøe: Yeah. 

Rodney Payne: And the transformation that Copenhagen’s been through is, is quite incredible.

Dorthe Barsøe: Yeah. 

Rodney Payne: Can you tell me about the location that Blox is on and what, what used to be here? Um, what was it like here before? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Um. It used to be more or less nothing. There was almost nothing here. And again, the whole harbor area was, it was old, it was dirty. So when, when Realdania, who, who was the one that’s a foundation, who bought the land and built the blocks, there was a complete development on an area where nothing really happened.

In the beginning, it was difficult to get people down here. But how do you solve that? You build a bridge. So there’s now a bridge to the other side called Christianshavn. So now we have a lot of traffic, a lot of people going this way every day on their bicycle. It’s a bicycle bridge. And you have, of course, seen how much people are bicycling in Copenhagen.

Rodney Payne: A lot. A lot. Do you feel worried or optimistic about the future? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Absolutely optimistic. I mean, it’s a, it’s a huge question. But if I was worried about, since I’m in tourism and I’m interested in tourism, I mean, we have a lot of attention, uh, from all over the world. We can see that not only because of World Capital of Architecture, but, um, we have a lot of guests, and I think that’s gonna, that’s gonna continue.

I like what they kind of learn when they, they get here, and I think a lot of people from, come from outside can learn something from Copenhagen, especially when it comes to democracy, sustainability, careful, uh, urban development, actually. So I think there’s a lot of positive things. 

Rodney Payne: I have one last question before you go look at the exhibition.

What are the things in life that bring you the most joy? 

Dorthe Barsøe: Wow, that’s a huge question. Um, I have to think about that. 

Rodney Payne: Take time. It’s the most important question. 

Dorthe Barsøe: It’s the most important question. It’s easy to say your family and your relatives and so on, but for me it’s also, I’ve always been a hard working person.

person. So a meaningful job like the one I have, that really makes me happy. And if you go down to details within that, I mean, when I take a look at my colleagues out there and see how they work together, they develop things, they’re happy, they’re satisfied, they share things, that really makes me happy.

And then another small funny thing. When I used to work in Tivoli, we had some small cars for kids. And they thought, the kids, when they were sitting on these old, big cars, they thought that they were driving the cars. They were not, because the wheels were just going like that. And that was the best thing, to go and see them, all those kids, being so happy about driving the cars.

It can makes me exactly, it can bring me the same happiness, when I look down in an exhibition and see a grandmother and a child talking about one of these, with one of these conversation starters, a discussion about something. That they talk about development or ideas or opinions about things and that’s what they do in our kind of exhibitions.

That makes me really happy when we succeed to make people talk. Especially when it’s kids, elder people. That’s really, that makes sense. 

David Archer: This has been Travel Beyond presented by Destination Think. And you just heard from Dorthe Barsøe, Director at the Danish Architecture Center. We’ll include links to more resources on the blog for this episode at 

This episode has been produced and has theme music composed by me, David Archer. My co-producer and co-host is Sara Raymond de Booy. Lindsay Payne and Annika Rautiola provided production support. We would like to thank Wonderful Copenhagen for their support in creating this podcast season with us and for their willingness to be bold.

You can help more people find this show by subscribing and by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And that’s all for this season in Copenhagen. Thanks so much for being with us and we’re looking forward to the next place we travel together soon. We’ll see you then!


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