“The infrastructure needs are great […] and I think the concept of redirecting some visitors to help support these sorts of things is a great idea whose time has come.”
— Brad Parsell

In the popular tourism destination of Načiks, or Tofino, British Columbia, visitor dollars are funding critical infrastructure. The small community on Vancouver Island’s west coast has committed $1.6 million of hotel tax revenue toward the debt servicing of a new $80 million wastewater treatment plant. This marks a major departure from how these funds are typically spent.

“Some people raised eyebrows,” says Brad Parsell, Executive Director of Tourism Tofino. “But 85% of our local businesses supported it. They saw the connection. If tourism contributes to the problem, then it needs to contribute to the solution.”

Tofino hosted more than 700,000 visitors in 2024, far outnumbering the 2,500 residents. It’s no surprise that so many are drawn here. The powerful allure of the landscape, and the sheer volume of visitors it attracts, underscores why tourism must also take responsibility for protecting the very systems it relies on, especially the water supply and sewage treatment. Until recently, raw sewage was discharged directly into local waters, which threatened marine life and traditional Indigenous food systems. “We were literally pumping untreated sewage into a UNESCO biosphere,” Brad says. “It was time to do better.”

This move reflects a growing shift in how destinations view tourism’s role in community wellbeing. Tofino’s approach is bold, but it is not alone. In Bend, Oregon, visitor dollars have helped support essential services like fire safety and housing. Mammoth Lakes, California is exploring ways to invest tourism revenue into wildfire resilience and climate adaptation. These examples show that tourism can be part of the solution when destinations align funding with community priorities.

Tofino’s leadership in sustainability will already be familiar to Travel Beyond listeners. The region has been featured in two seasons of the podcast. In a prior conversation, Brad shared how Indigenous values are helping guide destination strategy.

In this new episode, we revisit that philosophy through the lens of the ʔiisaak Pledge. Pronounced similar to “ee-sock,” ʔiisaak is a Nuu-chah-nulth word that means “to observe, to appreciate, and to act accordingly.” The pledge is a commitment visitors can take, based on four Tla-o-qui-aht teachings and laws. It encourages behaviours like staying on marked trails, protecting wildlife, conserving water, and learning from local Indigenous culture. Travellers can take the pledge online or in person at tourism touchpoints across the destination.

But the pledge is more than a list of suggested behaviours. It is an invitation to view travel differently. Rather than seeing travel as consumption, visitors are encouraged to see it as a relationship. As Brad puts it, “We’re not just managing tourism. We’re inviting people to be part of something much deeper — a shared responsibility to care for this place.”

Questions for your destination to consider

Tofino’s experience offers a real-world example of tourism aligning with Indigenous and community values. Here are three questions to ask as you reflect on your own destination:

1. Is tourism activity straining the local infrastructure?
   
2. How do local residents feel about how tourism gives back?
   
3. How could tourism funding be directed to address impacts on infrastructure?

Show Notes

→ Tourism Tofino
Learn more about Tofino’s travel experiences, stewardship initiatives, and visitor resources straight from the destination’s official site.

→ The ʔiisaak Pledge
Take the pledge online and learn how this Indigenous-led commitment to respectful travel supports both the environment and local First Nations communities.

→ BC’s MRDT Program
Find out how the Municipal and Regional District Tax functions in British Columbia and how it can be adapted to support community infrastructure.

[audiogram]

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Transcript

This transcript was generated using AI and has been lightly reviewed for accuracy.

Brad Parsell: Folks know us for being one of the best surf breaks in North America and things of that nature.

But, um, increasingly the First Nations here are, are really, um, you know. Really becoming a force in tourism and their presence is becoming more and more felt. And there’s so much amazing, beautiful history and beautiful stories that are being shared. And, um, you know, I’d say come for the beaches and the forest, but, but stay for the, for the culture.

It’s a, it’s a really special part of the world. 

So, so the, what we now know as the town of Tofino is, is situated on the end of the Auta Peninsula, which is, um, right in the heart of colloquial first Nation territory.

They’re one of, uh, 14 maternal First Nations, uh, on the west coast here. Um. And, and Tofino. The harbor here acts as a jumping off point to, to many other nations as well, particularly the of First Nation and the hes First Nation to the north. Um, the, to the south of us, there’s, there’s, um, you know, YFA Kuwait at First Nation who are all, um, doing interesting and exciting things in tourism as well.

So yeah, we’re really becoming, um. Quite a force, uh, in terms of indigenous led stewardship and indigenous led tourism. Um, I think in terms of, you know, some of [00:06:00] the, the settler folks that ended up here, it’s, it’s really eclectic, we you. We’re at the end of a very long and windy road. And so we have that kind of, um, end of the road culture.

You know, we have a history of, of activism, of people standing up to extractive natural resources, uh, industries like, uh, commercial logging and commercial fishing. And so we sort of have this spirit of, of, you know, realizing that this place is, is bigger than each of us, and that everybody is connected.

Everything is one. And that, you know, we all need to, to band together to, to protect this place. So it’s quite an interesting cast of characters. And, uh, it’s really what makes this place special. 

David Archer: Yeah. Interesting characters for sure. Uh, I was wondering if you can tell me a little about how indigenous culture shows up in the travel experience around Tofino.

Brad Parsell: Yeah, it’s, it’s honestly happening more and more, um, you know, we [00:07:00] have more, um, market ready indigenous experiences here in Tofino than Vancouver does at the moment. So it’s, it’s really, really exploding and, and there’s all kinds of different ways. It’s, it’s manifesting, you know, um, colloquially at First Nation owns a, a Resort 10 West and a, and an RV ground, um, sidewalk.

Um, a house at First Nation has recently purchased a remote lodge that they’re planning to open next year. They, a couple of years ago, bought, uh, Ocean Outfitters, like a whale watching company, and so they have a variety of adventures. And, um, and I’m just picking a few, there’s, people have listened to the podcast about a bunch of people like Stevie from Mass Foods and Gordon from T-Bird eBikes, and there’s, there’s lots of really cool, um, businesses, but what’s cooler than that for the visitor is.

Um, through those experiences, getting to have, you know, getting to see all the beautiful nature and all those sorts of things. But, but really going deeper than that and, and being able to learn, you know, a [00:08:00] bit about the, the culture and a bit about, um, you know, rights and title in this part of the world and, um.

And, and some of the, some of the, um, many, many, many ways, uh, that, that indigenous folks have, have actively participated in stewarding this area. So it’s really cool. I mean, you can do a whale watching tour in many parts of the world. Um, but to, to, you know, to hear some songs or some stories that are, that are connected to, to, to Wales, uh, you know, in this part of the world from an indigenous lens really just makes that experience so much richer.

David Archer: Yeah. One of the guests that I spoke with in November said something to the effect of, you know, within the last five years he had noticed, uh, a big increase in the sort of curiosity that people are bringing to Tofino and the IIT area. Mm-hmm. About indigenous culture and First Nations and, and also sort of like, uh.

Uh, a deeper background knowledge before [00:09:00] they arrive. Yeah. Um, have you noticed that as well? Or, or what are you seeing around from visitors? 

Brad Parsell: Yeah, for sure. And I, I think it’s a, it’s a, it’s a been a joint effort between cloak and a house especially, and, and, and folks like us at tourism Tofino of really trying to share that history and, and share some of that, uh, even before visitors get here as part of that trip planning experience.

Um. You know, we launched a brand new website, tourism Pheno last summer. And, um, I mean, anyone who’s built a website at that scale knows how, how much of a challenge that project is, but 

David Archer: It’s a lot of work. 

Brad Parsell: But the most exciting part of that project was the indigenous consultation that we did. Um, and to really, um, thread not just bolt on a page about indigenous tourism and check a box and call it a day, but how we.

N culture and language all through the website. Um, it’s one of the biggest tools we have for folks, you know, [00:10:00] planning a trip to come here and so right out of the gate before you even, you know, got in the car or got in a plane to come here, you know, you’ve been exposed to, um, you know, some of the stories and some of the, some of the teachings and, and some of the language from the indigenous folks out here.

So we are feeling that we’re, we’re feeling people are coming out here. Um, hungry to learn more about that part of this really beautiful place. That’s great. 

What’s one thing that you’d like visitors to learn from their trip to Tofino? 

Brad Parsell: Yeah. I think it’s, it’s really some of these. Some of these indigenous teachings and, and indigenous laws that have been passed down from millennia that I think humans need now more than ever, frankly.

Um, you know, I’m talking about things like, you know, everything is connected, everything is one. This idea that, um, humans don’t sit on top of the web of life, that we’re a part of it, and that we have a responsibility to, to uphold nature. I think things like Esoc, which is a, a, a really, um, a big teaching in your channel’s culture, um, which loosely translates to respect.

Um, it’s probably more accurately translated as to, um, to observe, appreciate, and to act accordingly. Um, and, [00:13:00] and I think those concepts, you know, when you really unpack them, um, you know, it’s, it’s really about. Stewarding the lands and waters and, and, and stewarding the planet for, for future generations.

And you know, I think there’s a lot that folks can learn from, from indigenous folks, from the history here, the activism, um. And, you know, just especially in these kinds of times, you know, standing up for, for what’s important, standing up for the future and, and standing up for, um, for the environment. And so I think there’s a lot of really beautiful things folks can take away or learn and take away from here and hopefully, you know, apply that to wherever folks are from in their own communities.

I think it’s really powerful. 

David Archer: There’s so many big lessons in what you just said surrounding that idea of respect or ʔiisaak, and I think we’ll get into more of that a little later. Mm-hmm. Uh, I was wondering if, you know, [00:14:00] you mentioned sort of the need to take care of the planet or to, you know, respect natural law, I think you said.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so tourism has a responsibility to help that. It happens as well. Yeah. Um, I wanted to ask you about the tourism activity in Tofino. Mm-hmm. How many visitors do you get? How much revenue does that bring? What’s the, what’s the snapshot of the big picture? I 

Brad Parsell: Yeah, so big picture, you know, we’re, we’re a town of two and a half thousand people, give or take.

And, uh, in 2024 it was estimated we had about three quarters of a million visitors, about 711,000 and change. And, and those, uh, visitors spent about $430 million directly, uh, into fino. So it has become pretty. Massive industry for a pretty small place. Um, yeah. 

Brad Parsell: And so with that, um, you know, comes a lot of [00:15:00] challenges and responsibility, frankly.

folks here have, have had a front row seat, have witnessed. The devastation of things like really bad unsustainable, clear cut logging, you know, that was, that was happening a lot in the seventies and eighties.

And, um, folks saw that, you know, and the impact it was having on watersheds and salmon runs and, um, and, and people really stood up. There was almost a conscious decision in the eighties and nineties during some of the protests and the activism that went on out here against that extraction.

You know, it was sort of a, you know, very deliberate that we let go of [00:16:00] some of those industries and we really embraced ecotourism, you know, and tourism had this promise that we were, you know, it wasn’t going to be as exploitive or extractive for both the environment, the wildlife, and for.

You know, and fast forward 20, 30, 40 years now, we have this massive tourism industry, and I’m not entirely sure if we’ve lived up to that promise fully. You know, like there are like, make no mistake there, there are massive impacts, you know, um, still from, from our industry, from tourism, you know, having.

That many people come to a place that’s relatively small.

It puts pressure on, on, on, on different aspects of the community. And so, you know, we’re really cognizant of that and we’re really trying, um, to work with the residents to work with, um, the First Nations, um, other leaders in the community, um, first and foremost around visitor education and settings of my expectation.

And then around, you know, what are some of the other things we can do to sort of mitigate. Uh, the impacts, but, um, but you know, the maternal nations out here have been welcoming visitors for thousands and thousands of years, like way before [00:18:00] European compacts, like, you know, the, the, 

David Archer: yeah, 

Brad Parsell: The ocean out here was like the Pacific Highway of, you know, like canoes and, and lots of trade and, um, cultural exchanges going on.

And, um, and you know. Back in those times, there were protocols, you know, when you were invited, uh, into a territory, um, you know, you were expected to abide by the, the natural laws and protocols of, of, in this case, the politically at First Nation. And so we’ve taken that very old concept and we’re sort of trying to reimagine it in this modern tourism context where we, you know, we ask people to respect the, the, the natural laws and protocols of this place.

INVESTING IN WASTEWATER TREATMENT

David Archer: Yeah. Yeah. There’s sort of two layers to the responsibility here that I, that you mentioned. You know, the visit visitor education is part of that. Uh, and then there’s also the more systemic sort of background, um, not only the, the mindset we bring to it, but, but the actual infrastructure [00:19:00] itself. Mm-hmm.

And before the call you’d mentioned that, uh. Tourism Tofino has used a portion of the hotel tax to fund a new wastewater treatment plant. Mm-hmm. And that’s kind of a surprising piece of news to me. Tell me about why you’re investing in water treatment. 

Brad Parsell: until last year, we didn’t have a wastewater treatment plant in this part of the world. And so you can put two and two together, you know, we were, we were literally, um, the pumping, untreated raw syringe into, um, the colloquial tribal parks, which are a UNESCO designated biosphere [00:20:00] region that are, you know, ecologically sensitive.

And, and that’s had a huge impact on. On, um, clan gardens and eel grass, feds and, and, and some of the traditional, um, foods that the nations out here, um, uh, are, are used to eating. And so it’s been identified as a problem, uh, in Youo for decades. But it’s one of those big hairy problems. It’s very, very expensive to solve.

And we didn’t, you know.

A piece of infrastructure that ended up being somewhere in the ballpark of $80 million. Wow. Um, so this was kind of before my time, but you know, there was a, there was sort of this growing idea that we wouldn’t need a wastewater treatment plant, um, as, as big a capacity if we didn’t have a tourism economy.

You know, we have about a thousand commercial hotel rooms, about three 20 short term rentals. [00:21:00] Um, they all have flushing toilets, and so, you know, like, yep. Um, the concept that the total cost of this project shouldn’t be borne by the residents of tope was, was incredibly well supported. And so folks started looking for, um, other ways that, uh, potentially tourism could, could contribute in some way to this piece of infrastructure.

Um. And, you know, where we landed was what was the hotel tax. I think first of all, that the hotel tax we have in British Columbia is the envy of a lot of other jurisdictions around the world. It’s, it’s a really, uh, in my opinion, world class funding mechanism for, um, you know, it’s really when, when people say, oh.

Uh, you know, tourism defeat, like why are we footing the bill for all of this? It’s really nice to say, well, the resident doesn’t pay for anything Tourism defeats. It’s the visitor through the hotel tax. Yeah. You know, like our, our [00:22:00] marketing, our visitor services program, our destination stewardship program, um.

But, you know, um, the destination organizations in British Columbia who receive that tax, um, are fairly protective of it, you know, for obvious reasons. And, you know, even every municipality around the province started tapping into that money. It would, you know, very, very quickly dilute, um, the original intended purpose for that, for that part of money.

So in certain quarters it was a controversial, um, decision to tap into that part of money. Um. But, um, but it, but it, but it got voted through, you know, by, by, um, by the community. And, um, and so we are over the, by the end of next year, we would’ve contributed, or the visitor to Tofino would’ve contributed $1.6 million towards the debt servicing on this, uh, on this piece of critically needed infrastructure.

Oh. So, and, and [00:23:00] you know, we recently did a survey of all the businesses in Tofino. I think we had about 132 businesses respond to that survey. Um, and 85% of the businesses in Tofino, um, support the idea of some of that per hotel tax going towards at least water treatment plants. The [00:24:00] infrastructure need is great, you know, and so I think the concept of redirecting some visitor spend to help support these sorts of things is, is a, is a great idea whose time has come? I think it’s just, it’ll be destination to destination to decide.

You know, what that looks like, the mechanics of that. But, the concept is, um, essential. I think there’s really no other way for a place like Taino to pay for these things unless, um, you know, tourism contributes at least a little bit. 

David Archer: Yeah, absolutely. A few of my guests from last season had mentioned the water supply [00:25:00] as well. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I noticed some signs around town too about potential water restrictions and that sort of thing.

Yeah. Um. Yeah. Is that, uh, a pretty active conversation? 

Brad Parsell: Oh, yeah. And, and Tofino’s not alone in that, the objective reality of, of the history of Tofino is that, we’re building all of these hotel rooms and we’re building all of this tourism infrastructure, but, um, we didn’t really think too deeply about the impact that was gonna have on water and sewer and roads and things like that. And, and the housing that would be needed for the workforce to support that development.

Um. And so, you know, water has emerged as, probably one of our biggest challenges is in terms of infrastructure. Um, in 2023 in this part of the world, we had a sort of once in a hundred year drought. Um. And it, it put a lot of pressure on, on our water system,

Brad Parsell: The drinking water in Tofino is collected from M Island across the, and it’s all, uh, and so its surface. That ends up in a creek. And then there’s a, there’s a few, um, dams over there and it’s piped by a submarine pipe. Um, so when we had that really bad drought, those creeks started to dry up. Um, and, and to be clear, to find only has a water problem four weeks of the year.

It’s like late August, early at least September, the rest of the year, we have all the water we would ever need. 

Yeah. Well, I also learned that. You know that that water supply, the current one comes from Mes Island. Mm-hmm. Which is the, the place that was protected by the tribal park declaration in the eighties and exactly the battles over that, uh, led largely by indigenous folks.

Brad Parsell: Yeah. So, yeah, and there’s this, that’s sort of the story of, of this place all coming together is, you know, like the busiest four weeks of the year are the same four weeks of the year where we have [00:28:00] water issues. Yeah, we wouldn’t even have a tourism economy as you rightly point out, if it wasn’t for the First Nations and other, um, uh, allies standing up, you know, and, and, and protecting the far from the as if it was clear cut.

It’s not intuitive for folks who visit here. We’re one of the rainiest places in Canada, and yet we have a water problem. And, folks, it’s not an easy thing for people to wrap their head around. And so we’ve had to go out there with a film crew and actually shoot the thing and produce a video that sort of explains where our water comes from.

In the summer of 2023, we will almost run outta drinking water. Summer of 2024 was like the rainiest summer we’ve had. So it’s, well, and it’s hard. 

David Archer: if you’re not used to living in the rainforest. It’s hard to tell how healthy the rainforest is, right? Mm-hmm. Like you don’t know what, uh, necessarily what the rainiest season or the dry season looks like. It’s not a visible drought all the time. Totally. But we 

Brad Parsell: Certainly heard from first Nations [00:30:00] guardians who spend a lot of time out in the forest and on the land, like just how dry, like people were saying that they’ve never seen the forest that dry in their whole life.

We, you know, we asked the businesses about some of these challenges and, and 91% of the businesses agreed with the idea that we have to come together as a community and try to solve this water problem.

You know, it’s really yeah. Hard for us to imagine a future together without having this, uh, this problem solved. 

David Archer: Do you imagine that tourism to Fino will contribute funds to a potential solution down the line? Or is that part of the conversation? 

Brad Parsell: I mean, potentially. I mean, again, I think, you know, regenerative tourism is just the latest buzzword that’s been thrown around our industry.

But you know, to me what it really means is creating opportunities for. People who love these places to give [00:31:00] back to the places that they’re visiting. And yeah, you know, maybe this time it’s not the hotel tax, maybe it’s a, a different mechanism, but I think there has to be, you know, somewhere in that conversation, um, you know, pulling on that same concept that we use for the wastewater treatment plan is, you know, how can we direct a, a portion of visitor spend, um, towards this piece of infrastructure?

So that’s it. That’s a live conversation, but I guess we’ll see where that goes. 

David Archer: Got it. Yeah. That’ll be interesting to watch.let’s talk a little bit about respectful travel. How do you start to think about the concept of respect when it comes to tourism in Tofino, whether that’s environmental or cultural? 

Brad Parsell: Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting and, um. Uh, you know, we’ve been working on a to, on a destination stewardship plan for Tofino, which is kind of a, [00:32:00] uh, a bit of a 50 year multi-generational vision about, you know, where we sort of would like our industry to go.

And that’s, you know, being fed by the community. Um, and, you know, we, the, one of the aha moments so far in this project, uh, and you know, we hope to publish that towards the end of the. What we’re starting to realize is, um, you know, the values, things like respect, you know, respecting residents, respecting the environment, respecting the infrastructure, um, those are very, very important values for the residents of Dino.

And then you look at something like the Esoc Pledge, you know, based around this Nuu-chah-nulth concept of ʔiisaak – respect. Um, these are teachings that have been passed down for generations. Um, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s that classic sort of, you put the two over the top of each other and they’re exactly the same.

You know, [00:33:00] like the residents of Tofino are articulating the values that are articulated in the Esoc pledge, uh, in, in those teachings. And I think, I think for us that was like a huge light bulb moment where it’s like, oh. Um, you know, it’s not an us and them or a, you know, this part of the community and that part of the community.

Actually, everyone’s completely united on this idea that, uh, you know, whatever that looks like, we need to foster a respectful visitor economy here in fin. Something that, um, yeah, like exactly like you said, respects, um, natural law or an indigenous protocol. Um, that respects the residents and the people who call this place home. It respects the wildlife and the environment and the really sensitive ecological systems we have out here.

And, um, so it’s becoming, um, a huge part of how we talk about our industry. You know, it’s becoming a huge part of, of [00:34:00] tourism toner and, and potentially even our brand and the way we talk about this place to, to visitors. Um. And I, I, I think it’s, it really ties a lot of things together for us. And uh, again, I think it’s one of those teachings that is kind of universal and that if folks can get behind it here in toner, they can sort of take that home with them and implement it in their lives as well.

David Archer: What’s one thing you want travelers to take away from this story or this idea?

Brad Parsell: I think sometimes when we’re talking about sort of the future of tourism and travel and regenerative tourism, sustainable tourism, however you wanna frame it, um, it’s easy to lose sight of the actual visitor experience and what, why the visitors coming and what they’re [00:36:00] taking away from that experience.

You know, I, there’s a, there’s a lot of destinations all over the world doing responsible visitor messaging and, you know, trying to relay the values of their destination and trying to get some alignment with the visitors who come here. And there’s different ways to do that, such as sort of shock and awe campaigns that show you how, you know, trash all over a campsite or a bear ripping a bin apart.

Um, yeah, people make light of it or sort of, you know, have sort of funny, silly, poke fun of it. You know, we’ve been trying to find the tone here in Pino about, you know, how do we put across some of these things without being condescending and patronizing and without, um, making fun of it. Or, you know, like these are kind of serious things.

And, um, the ESOP pledge has really. Provided that vehicle, you know, it’s an invitation to learn. It’s an invitation to change behavior and align our values. But there is just so much rich stuff about how you could live your life, you know, [00:37:00] and, um, some really thought provoking, in my opinion, teachings about, you know, how you conduct yourself anywhere in this world and in this life.

And so for me, it’s. Hopefully the visitor is, you know, hearing the message, you know, whatever that is. Like, you know, don’t let your dog run around on the beaches, off leash, like we have shorebirds that are, you know, you know, there, or don’t, you know, like there, there’s all these kinds of little examples of how you could live up to the fledge.

But I, I think centering it in, in that, in that, in that really rich, beautiful culture is, you know, hopefully gives people pause and, and it’s more than just the don’t do this, don’t do that. Uh, you know, an invitation to, to, to live a more, um, you know, beautiful and connected life. 

David Archer: As we wrap up, is there anything else that you’d like to say to the travel industry or to other destinations, um, that you’d like to pass on? 

Brad Parsell: Yeah, I think, I mean, I’m, I’m in, I’m incredibly passionate about working with the first peoples of the destination and.[00:54:00] 

I, I’m passionate about it because it’s the right thing to do, but it, but I’m passionate about it because it, it will make you can’t really go wrong. I think, you know, like if, if you’re, if you’re working in harmony with First Peoples, but with, you know, according to their sort of vision of their territory.

If you’re letting them lead, you know, I, we talk a lot about truth and reconciliation in Canada, and especially in the Canadian tourism industry. And it looks nice on a slide and you know, like it’s all, it’s all, you know, nice platitudes of people saying the right things, but I still don’t really see the rubber hitting the road as much as I’d like to if I’m honest with you.

You know, and, um, I think it makes a richer visitor experience, I think, you know. Just by the indigenous worldview, just writ large is just so focused on people and planet first, you know, over Yeah. Things like profits. And I think [00:55:00] we all have a lot to learn from, from all kinds of indigenous worldviews and getting to know some of these folks out here and working with how that has, you know, I’m not being, I’m not using hyperbole here.

It’s, it’s changed my life, it’s changed my worldview and, and how I think. My career and my work in tourism, how I think about how I live my life, um, and that, that’s, that’s travel at its best, right? Is, is transformational that it changes you, that it touches you, that you, you know, are different because of the experience.

And that’s the sort of travel industry I’m looking to be a part of. 

David Archer: That’s the perfect note to end on. Awesome. Thanks. Thanks so much for, uh, being generous with your time and yeah. And your knowledge. Uh, I appreciate this. Thanks Brad. Yeah, thanks 

Brad Parsell: So much, David.